Armor History Discussion

[Mr Laws]

I had no idea that the TE armor originated from Cameron Oakley. That makes sense though. Wow, its a small world. I gotta get ahold of Cameron Oakley somehow.

 

More goodies

 

http://theswca.com/images-repli/cameron-helmet.html

 

http://theswca.com/images-repli/cameron-trooper-close.html

 

So if Cameron had the whole set. Why did Matt only get a few parts?

Better ask Matt

[TK-4510[TK]]

Awesome Matt. Thanks for answering these questions. Aaaaaaaaaaah feels so good.

 

This is the only Steve Johnson I could find that had any involvement with Star Wars.....so far.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0426276/

 

So this is really coming together now. We still would like some pics, but I am NOT complaining

 

Oh, sorry one other question Matt. Did You get the Hand guards from Cameron too, or were those tour parts as well?

 

So to clarify and bring us up to date...

 

1996 Matt buys ROTJ armor parts from CO. CO obtained them from Steve. Matt hires Dan to cast the molds of the original ROTJ parts. Soon afterward Matt and Mike make a transaction with Gino and Dave for the ROTJ molds. Matt gets GF to do a ANH set and it is not up to par. Matt uses his parts that Dan has made and combines them with tour parts to make TE ANH armor. in 2005 Matt sells his molds to Guns.

 

Freaking awesome gents!!!!

[Guest T*E]

Awesome Matt. Thanks for answering these questions. Aaaaaaaaaaah feels so good.

 

This is the only Steve Johnson I could find that had any involvement with Star Wars.....so far.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0426276/

 

So this is really coming together now. We still would like some pics, but I am NOT complaining

 

Oh, sorry one other question Matt. Did You get the Hand guards from Cameron too, or were those tour parts as well?

 

So to clarify and bring us up to date...

 

1996 Matt buys ROTJ armor parts from CO. CO obtained them from Steve. Matt hires Dan to cast the molds of the original ROTJ parts. Soon afterward Matt and Mike make a transaction with Gino and Dave for the ROTJ molds. Matt gets GF to do a ANH set and it is not up to par. Matt uses his parts that Dan has made and combines them with tour parts to make TE ANH armor. in 2005 Matt sells his molds to Guns.

 

Freaking awesome gents!!!!

Bingo.

 

The hand plates I had to get from the tour suit and they are identical to the ROTJ ones. A little different from ESB though.

 

I wish I had more pics. Back in the day I could not afford a good digital camera and they juts never happened. Mike and I USED to have images a long time ago but I have no clue to where they might be. If I can fin them no worries.. happy to share, but ont have any hope. The website we used to have back in 1998 is LONG gone.

 

T*E

[Rolf[501st]]

I say thanks from here too.

I have loved the sw saga since childhood.

I got my first tk suit in 2000.

Since then ive been trying to find out what is what.

Cheers bro´s

[TK8280]

Yeah, this is awesome, it all seems to be comming together as I have forseen

[Stomper]

WOW... I JUST NOW saw this thread tonight and read through the WHOLE THING in one setting...

 

I don't read the forums for a few weeks and everything comes UNHINGED!!

 

That final conclusion about TE's armor lineage basically about sums up what I was able to piece together over the last two years from reading "this and that" in many a dark corner of the internet.

 

FYI- Since it HAS come up before... If anyone doubts that Matt has been in the LFL archives; I personally saw some of the photos he took of all that good stuff while at his house a while back when I delivered twenty sets of custom made Hovi's to him. (I believe the DAY BEFORE his wedding!)

 

OFF TOPIC (a bit)- Contrary to the way Matt can come off in the forums sometimes, he's actually a pretty friendly guy, who was quite gracious enough to me and was willing to show and share quite a bit in answering some of the questions I asked. Just ask yourselves one thing; IF you were Matt and were widely regarded as THE ONE who made TK armor available to the masess, with everyone "wanting" something from you, not really being interested in "you", just your killer armor and perhaps feeling like you got ripped off by more than a few people (not directed at Gino!) over time, wouldn't YOU charge premo fees for armor, and be a tad on the cynical side too?

 

 

* TE, best of luck to you and the Mrs. in that child custody thing!

[TK-4510[TK]]

WOW... I JUST NOW saw this thread tonight and read through the WHOLE THING in one setting...

 

I don't read the forums for a few weeks and everything comes UNHINGED!!

 

That final conclusion about TE's armor lineage basically about sums up what I was able to piece together over the last two years from reading "this and that" in many a dark corner of the internet.

 

FYI- Since it HAS come up before... If anyone doubts that Matt has been in the LFL archives; I personally saw some of the photos he took of all that good stuff while at his house a while back when I delivered twenty sets of custom made Hovi's to him. (I believe the DAY BEFORE his wedding!)

 

OFF TOPIC (a bit)- Contrary to the way Matt can come off in the forums sometimes, he's actually a pretty friendly guy, who was quite gracious enough to me and was willing to show and share quite a bit in answering some of the questions I asked. Just ask yourselves one thing; IF you were Matt and were widely regarded as THE ONE who made TK armor available to the masess, with everyone "wanting" something from you, not really being interested in "you", just your killer armor and perhaps feeling like you got ripped off by more than a few people (not directed at Gino!) over time, wouldn't YOU charge premo fees for armor, and be a tad on the cynical side too?

* TE, best of luck to you and the Mrs. in that child custody thing!

 

Hmm. If you open that can of worms again it may not be too good. But as long as you asked.... I did ask myself that question. I regard myself as a person who is always looking for good opportunities. I think that Matt has been that way as well. If Matt had only been interested in making the armor himself, he never would have offered it to GF, Gino, Guns, and now Dan? He never would have offered the fiberglass STS molds to anyone either. No, thats something a business minded opportunist (like myself) might do. He got the molds, he made deals, he traded, he sold, he quit, and came back with new and improved......thats a business mans attitude. Not a hobbyist. So, I guess to answer the question....I wouldnt feel like I got ripped off in the least. He has created the monster, now it follows him and haunts him. Thats not anyones fault, but his. All he has to do to make these people go away is to move on and forget this whole thing. But being an opportunist (like me) he cant.

 

The days of charging primo fee's for armor are coming to a close my friends. Our economy is slowing, inflation is taking hold, the housing market is crashing, and soon disposable income will become less. Thats one reason (for me anyway) The other reason is.... The only time that something is considered rare and special is when it really is rare and special. The ANH armor is no longer a rare find. Matt has a new improved set coming from Dan. Then there is Gino's up and coming. Then there is the best man of them all, Guns ANH TE2 armor. Then there is the AP armor. Then we have SDS armor. And last but not least the sea of recasters. MAtt himself has made the one special thing he had to offer now common place. He will never see prices like he once commanded.

 

I have also heard that Matt is a great guy. I have talked to a few people and they always say that he doesnt come across as himself on the boards. Thats pretty true of all of us to some degree. We have heated discussions here, but nobody resorts to making physical threats to anyone. Nobody except Matt. I dont personally have an interest in Matt as a buddy outside of this hobby, becuase this is what we share in common. Not much different than having a golfing partner or bowling buddies. Everyone I know in my Star Wars universe is pretty much just my Star Wars buddies. I have never done anything with anyone in this circle that was not hobby related. Im sure others have, but I am answering the questions here

 

In closing of my ramblage..... I am very interested in what Matt has experienced. As well as Gino, and Dan, and Mike, and Dave. We all want to know, becuase we havent had the opportunity to live it, see it, feel it, or wear it. Its up to the above listed guys to want to share with us what they know. To let us in on the secrets and let us know what it was like. Thats what this thread is all about. 99% of us will never hold a real helmet, or see the archives. Try and remember that when you start getting tired of people asking you all these questions. There's no need to be cynical. We are all buddies here.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

The days of charging primo fee's for armor are coming to a close my friends. Our economy is slowing, inflation is taking hold, the housing market is crashing, and soon disposable income will become less. Thats one reason (for me anyway) The other reason is.... The only time that something is considered rare and special is when it really is rare and special. The ANH armor is no longer a rare find. Matt has a new improved set coming from Dan. Then there is Gino's up and coming. Then there is the best man of them all, Guns ANH TE2 armor. Then there is the AP armor. Then we have SDS armor. And last but not least the sea of recasters. MAtt himself has made the one special thing he had to offer now common place. He will never see prices like he once commanded.

 

Very true. It wasn't that long ago that ANH armor was very rare, even helmet upgrades. Now ANH helmets seem to be the rule - heck a fully completed FX bucket is now worth less than $100 - and I see more and more RT/AP and even TE2 full suits popping up all over. As scale goes up and rarity goes down, prices have indeed fallen.

[Stomper]

As far as the TE - GF - Gino dispute: "Everyone is justified in their own eyes." Only those involved can resolve their issue, and ther's no sense in taking sides in a years old dispute anyway, unless you are sitting on a jury in court.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys on the primo fees for armor.... I just can't quite bring myself to spring for the asking price of the more accurate armors out there BECAUSE I know the following; After the initial investment of acquiring a master and making the molds, it doesn't cost a whole lot in materials, and once you have a systematic process down, not a huge amount of time to crank out armor parts by the scores. If ever I get into this aspect of prop building (I'm into fabricating WEAPONRY, see E-11 blasters... LOL) I most likely would be asking around slightly more than half of what the current prices are for accurate armor.

 

There's nothing wrong with making a fair profit for your time and operating expenses, but like any market... supply and demand will gauge the asking prices. Since there is an increasing number of talented individuals/groups making this stuff the competition will further drive prices down, and it will be more of a matter of having a good reputation and customer service that will keep troopers coming your way instead of the others, so.... playing nice, and being somewhat civil and congenial with folks will be a factor as well. The "arrogant" armor master days are coming to a close, again this is a plus for the SW prop-loving community, that's why I can live without having UBER ACCURATE armor for the time being.

[SethB6025[501st]]

Absolute Bull***t.

I've held both a TE and TM in my hands, they are not the same. Not even the same size.

I would like to take a chance to agree with this, I've owned and/or handled TE, TE2, AP, GF2, and TM. I was there when Mike & I handled a TM alongside at TE, TE2, and AP. It is absolutely not a recast. The allegations are nothing more than sour grapes from a handful of nay-sayers (some of whom I like, sorry guys) who can't believe that anyone can do anything other than recast a screen-used Stormtrooper helmet to make a good replica. Anyone capable of proving me wrong on that point can have my armor.

I'd also like to thank Matt, Gino, Dan, and some others for being (eventually) forthcoming with a lot of information. Its a shame the go-around has to happen every few years though.

[GINO]

I've got a better idea. Prove to me it's not, and you can have mine.

Only talking about his faceplate mind you.

[Guest T*E]

I've got a better idea. Prove to me it's not, and you can have mine.

Only talking about his faceplate mind you.

The face plate isnt the same.. You totally missed the photos TM posted almost 6 months ago showing a top view of the face. The angles of the jowls were completely worng on one side and could not have been altered after taking a casting.

[TK4205]

well I'm sure glad we have options other than the "screen accurate" armor, because I would be embarrassed to wear it with all the bumps, wrinkles, uneven parts and imperfections. Do you "screen accurate guys" let your parts flop around and come undone? do you use tape and twist ties, bailing wire and bubblegum just like they did for the movie? Do you not even bother sealing up the back of you calf pieces?

 

I like my armor to appear as a stormtrooper was intended to look. Clean and perfect with no bumps or wrinkles. Remember folks, they were meant to be seen on film, not trooping out among fans. I have never yet had one of our fans tell me that my RT is not screen accurate.

 

My .02

[theGreatSot[501st]]

GINO said:

I've got a better idea. Prove to me it's not, and you can have mine.

Only talking about his faceplate mind you.

I've been trying not to get into this, but here goes... You and I went round and round for 3 days via PM and you still never told my why you feel that the TM face plate is a recast. The best that you could say on the subject was that Paul tried his hand at modeling some of the harder parts and then gave up and recast said parts and then reworked them so that he could call them his own. The TM helmet that both Mike and Seth have held and compared to a TE, TE2, and AP is MY helmet. I call BS as well. Enough of the dimensions are off just the smallest bit that it is EXTREMELY obvious in person that the helmet can't be a recast. I'm in no way saying that Paul's helmet is a poor helmet. By far the opposite. I like it better than the other two helmets I own. </rant>

 

So I lied... I do have one more thing to say:

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Edited December 14, 2020 by gmrhodes13
link not working, removed gmrhodes13 2020

[TK-4510[TK]]

Well I say, since the TE is a recast and the Gino is a recast.... Then who cares what TM did..... Its still a sharper helmet.

[Guest Bezerkus]

I would like to take a chance to agree with this, I've owned and/or handled TE, TE2, AP, GF2, and TM. I was there when Mike & I handled a TM alongside at TE, TE2, and AP. It is absolutely not a recast. The allegations are nothing more than sour grapes from a handful of nay-sayers (some of whom I like, sorry guys) who can't believe that anyone can do anything other than recast a screen-used Stormtrooper helmet to make a good replica. Anyone capable of proving me wrong on that point can have my armor.

I've got a better idea. Prove to me it's not, and you can have mine.

Only talking about his faceplate mind you.

 

Prove it to me or I will take both your armor!!!...heheh...ok, I'll shut up. Pictures are always nice...

[Peregrinus]

I like my armor to appear as a stormtrooper was intended to look. Clean and perfect with no bumps or wrinkles. Remember folks, they were meant to be seen on film, not trooping out among fans. I have never yet had one of our fans tell me that my RT is not screen accurate.

 

Always been my costuming philosophy -- "More Accurate Than the Film Version". That's what's been taking so long with my Royal Guard. I want to do more than unattached cape shell and lining, a rough smock for an inner tunic, and orange suede cowboy boots. There's a lot of leeway and still be accurate to what was seen onscreen.

 

--Jonah

[Rolf[501st]]

AA SDS destroy the anh moulds around 80 (clear them out), but he say he safe the rubber skins there was between the anh moulds to protect them.

And use them for he´s anh suits, and that he also got a few real anh parts here and there.

Can he use the skins, for making suits as moulds.

I dont know, i´m not a maker.

And do he still have eny safed anh parts.

 

Best regards.

Rolf

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Always been my costuming philosophy -- "More Accurate Than the Film Version". That's what's been taking so long with my Royal Guard. I want to do more than unattached cape shell and lining, a rough smock for an inner tunic, and orange suede cowboy boots. There's a lot of leeway and still be accurate to what was seen onscreen.

 

--Jonah

 

It depends on what you mean by accurate. I think there are two needs armor is trying to fulfill: one is true to what was seen/impression which right now TM takes tops but RT is really dang good too, or the closest you can get to the original molds. One is not "better" than the other, they are two different goals, so comparing them while interesting yields nothing fruitful to the buyer.

[Rolf[501st]]

Me again, hope some one can answer my questions above

[trooperstormy]

Wow. This thread is huge!

Sorry I'm bringing this up now. Last post was in September.

[kiyotei[TK]]

ok since I looked at the last post, I wanted to ask a question of all you gurus. One of the guys I work with tells me he knows for a fact that the early concepts for the trooper helmet in ANH were based on a motorcycle helmet, MSR (Malcolm Smith Racing) from that era. He says he used to have the helmet but it was ruined in a wreck he had. When he says he heard them talk about it after the movie came out, he's usually correct. Has anyone seen or read any articles talking about this? Unfortunately he does not have pics of this helmet and a quick search online with him turned up nothing.

[Star Wars Helmets]

ok since I looked at the last post, I wanted to ask a question of all you gurus. One of the guys I work with tells me he knows for a fact that the early concepts for the trooper helmet in ANH were based on a motorcycle helmet, MSR (Malcolm Smith Racing) from that era. He says he used to have the helmet but it was ruined in a wreck he had. When he says he heard them talk about it after the movie came out, he's usually correct. Has anyone seen or read any articles talking about this? Unfortunately he does not have pics of this helmet and a quick search online with him turned up nothing.

 

 

I dont think that is correct. All the original designs were by Ralph McQuarrie. There were a few clay sculpts made of differing designs but I dont recall ever seeing anything basd on a motor cycle helmet

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Scooter]

If Matt had only been interested in making the armor himself, he never would have offered it to GF, Gino, Guns, and now Dan? He never would have offered the fiberglass STS molds to anyone either.

 

Not trying to revive a monster (and coming in on this a year late it was a big catch up LOL). But I was interested in you Mike mentioning the Fiberglass STS (Stop That Ship?) molds. Is their any helmets made from these yet and is there any photo's of any helmets cast from it yet? I have always loved that particular Helmet and would love to see cast helmets from the original. If anyone would PM me or let me know any further info about this I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks.

[GINO]

The SFS helmet faceplate or the cap/back was NEVER cast, either from the outside OR the inside.

Only the ears of that particular helmet were cast.

 

Mverta paid for a 3d-scan of this helmet to be made which was never supposed to be used by Matt to create helmets, yet years later against Mverta's wishes, Matt went ahead and did it anyway.

 

Although 3d scan technology is pretty good at capturing data during the initial scan, it is horribly limited in what can actually be cut out in 3d. Specific shapes are limited by the tooling and any surface nuances are completely unable to be replicated.

 

Here is what the foam SFS helmet looked like before Matt had it 'cleaned up' for molding.

You can even see the pencil lines to indicate where the groove should be added in like on the original.

In other words, this chunk of foam was HEAVILY modified and cleaned up in order to produce the fiberglass castings that so many now have.

 

To call it an exact accurate reproduction is a super stretch.

 

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Edited December 14, 2020 by gmrhodes13
link not working, removed gmrhodes13 2020