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I agree with some of the above comments. These recasting arguments should stay on the boards like the RPF, where the nasty vicious flaming wars appear. All these threads are advertising the recast armour and helmets to newbies and those who are tempted by the cost.

 

Joe

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Delete the posts that start fights.

 

Paul, I disagree here with you a tad. You and I share the same outlook on many things, but LFL owns it all.

Yes. I agree outright TM, TE2 and the others that support the community are inside this community an asset. To LFL however... There a liability. Personal use is a loose term. When some of the figures get tossed around (such as TE has done on youtube...lie or not) LFL will raise an eyebrow if not the Gavel. I am soon (finally) to make helmets in Vaderland but I still know my position in the world of who owns what. Having sections devoted to this argument is just dangerous in my opinion.

 

I am not all gloom and doom. Some post about drama. Yea it is. The RPF thrives on it sometimes. I would hate to see this get like that. You all want a fight it out section.. Cool. Just be ready for the problems that come with it. Information is not secret on the main board, and I really don't see this as a positive section.

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Nathan I see what you're saying and again I say that the Trash Compactor is clearly not about LFL. It is an in-community issue. TE making that video blunder is TEs problem. Lucasfilm are not so dumb that they couldn't acquire armour from any seller and take them apart. When Museum Replicas finally produces a retail set, they may just do that and this is a discussion for another thread.

 

Transparency about the recast debate/argument starts when we leave the 'posts that start fights' as they are and move the threads here. That way everyone knows who said what, unless, of course, they edit their own posts and that will also speak volumes.

 

I see no good reason to allow unruly children to draw on the walls of our house with their crayons and not be given a time-out. I may have overstretched that analogy a little; unruly children = flaming-recast threads... Ah, you get it! ;)

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OK, I understand the recast debate but what I don't understand is this thing with SDS being labeled a recaster. Is it that he lied in court or that he recast his own work that had been recast by someone else? It just seems that it's fine for the likes of TE, TE2, ATA and even CAP to recast armor that was lets face it made by SDS in the first place. Yet although it has never actually been proven that SDS did recast other makers or not (hearsay)( I may be wrong here, so please enlighten me) Surely that he made the originals gives him some right to copy his own work that copied from his original work? Confused? So am I........... :unsure:

I also understand that we must keep a degree of quality with producers of armor.

It has been said that it is accepted that anyone who gains access or buys something original may recast it and sell it to the community.

How many of the accepted armor and lid makers out there actually did or do?

Buying molds from someone that did is also accepted?

Personal is a very loose term as these producers are not making these pieces for personal use they are profiting from the production of recasted wares by selling them to the community. if someone can sell a suit of armour on the net for a couple of hundred dollars albeit crap, it just goes to show how much profit is made. I realize money payed out for molds, armour and lids etc is covered in the cost but this is profit anyway you look at it. The cost of materials and time are not reflected here in reality it is the privilege of us being able to own a screen accurate replica.

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The beef with SDS is the Liz Moore snub. AA actually said he sculpted the helmet and armor. He did not.

 

Did he make it? Yea... he made it. He is the tooling person, not the artist. Really, all recasters and for that matter casters are tooling. TM however debated by some did from the ground up sculpt the stuff he makes copies of and that is cool. Really, that is rare as for the community looks for the screen ones. TMs may be the closest thing we ever get though.

 

AA just looked to be riding the cash cow with spurs on. Not doubting his movie contributions, but his actions make many in the community mad.

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This is a dangerous section. :angry: I don't like it at all. Not the debate, but the fact its here. This is a trooping community, not a prop one, and at that one that is tentative to even be here. Leave it to the "propsafe" drum beaters. :rolleyes:

 

I know I have been slammed for my views before, backed the wrong horse once... but really...

 

This is just going to get ugly.

 

I have been around long enough now to have seen both sides, have my opinion changed and everything else. When Uncle Gorge pulls the plug... WE LOSE.

 

This just adds fuel to that fire.

 

 

If you all don't think he is watching... your all naive. This IS his paycheck. I say we SHUT UP and TROOP. ALL armor makers need to remember that none of us have a license. That means, short and sweet, no room to complain at any level. If you want to get a set of big boy pants that comes with the license.

 

Yes, go to those you trust. Never changed that view I have. Thing is WE as a community are getting far far to bold.

 

WE HAVE NO RIGHTS. NONE. Modified, improved, cast, recast, sold the "rights", sculpted, CNC'd, paprikura, based on... any other excuse I can think of. Bla Bla Blah. Its all not yours.

 

No one can stop recasting. The Pandora's box is open. Education is the key. Quality and trust yes... top notch. That comes through research and talking to troopers that know things. Ebay is flat out evil, but again... LFL is gracious enough to let us even sell stuff. Try that with DC or Marvel. Good luck.

 

We have lost our minds. Dig a bomb shelter. Hide. PM only. No Origin threads at any level. That is my vote.

 

Bootleg is bootleg.

I agree almost completely

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I understand that. But for me its more of the "I feel the same as this veteran about the war." type issue.

 

Alex, I see where you're comin' from, as I'm kind of a traditional "respect the folks who have been there, done that" kinda guy too-- but I think Steve's got the right idea.

 

I think everyone's more than welcome to their opinion, and you and I are more than welcome to agree or disagree with it as we see fit.

I'd be the first to tell you that you should definitely take the advice of a Vet like TrooperMaster, or Joe R, over my own, but it doesn't mean my opinion is totally invalid.

It's definitely up to you to use your own judgment about whose opinion you want to give more credence to, but I don't think it's cool to stifle somebody because you think they haven't "earned it".

 

If we start getting exclusionary and holier-than-thou about stuff, it's just bad juju for everyone.

The idea is to EXPAND the hobby and welcome new folks. The more, the merrier, IMO.

 

There's already plenty of forums out there that cater to costume snobbery. I think you know what I'm talkin' about-- I'm sure we can name at least a couple places online that get all weird and cult-ish about their membership, and I think you'll agree that it pretty much sucks. I'd like the FISD to avoid that junk.

 

Recasting is a touchy topic for a lot of people as it is-- heaping a big spoonful of elitism on top ain't gonna help much.

 

I'm not tryin' to bust your chops at all, Alex; I think you're a good guy, and have really enjoyed your build thread... I just don't want new guys to think they have to pass some kind of costume litmus test to have an opinion.

 

We're a bunch of dorks running around in plastic. Sure, a lot of us are really passionate about the hobby and take it seriously, but let's not get all uppity about it. :P

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Alex, I see where you're comin' from, as I'm kind of a traditional "respect the folks who have been there, done that" kinda guy too-- but I think Steve's got the right idea.

 

I think everyone's more than welcome to their opinion, and you and I are more than welcome to agree or disagree with it as we see fit.

I'd be the first to tell you that you should definitely take the advice of a Vet like TrooperMaster, or Joe R, over my own, but it doesn't mean my opinion is totally invalid.

It's definitely up to you to use your own judgment about whose opinion you want to give more credence to, but I don't think it's cool to stifle somebody because you think they haven't "earned it".

 

If we start getting exclusionary and holier-than-thou about stuff, it's just bad juju for everyone.

The idea is to EXPAND the hobby and welcome new folks. The more, the merrier, IMO.

 

There's already plenty of forums out there that cater to costume snobbery. I think you know what I'm talkin' about-- I'm sure we can name at least a couple places online that get all weird and cult-ish about their membership, and I think you'll agree that it pretty much sucks. I'd like the FISD to avoid that junk.

 

Recasting is a touchy topic for a lot of people as it is-- heaping a big spoonful of elitism on top ain't gonna help much.

 

I'm not tryin' to bust your chops at all, Alex; I think you're a good guy, and have really enjoyed your build thread... I just don't want new guys to think they have to pass some kind of costume litmus test to have an opinion.

 

We're a bunch of dorks running around in plastic. Sure, a lot of us are really passionate about the hobby and take it seriously, but let's not get all uppity about it. :P

 

I disagree; I don't run.

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The beef with SDS is the Liz Moore snub. AA actually said he sculpted the helmet and armor. He did not.
And the possibility that armour parts were recast from other producers, though I don't know enough about that. Some-one care to fill me in via PM?
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I'm with Wyatt. and it's geek, not dork thank you very much. ;)

 

 

Okay, okay-- no running. You guys move with "the swagga", as Smitty would say. B)

 

As for the rest, I'll keep my trap shut. I'm not willing to wade into the age-old "dork vs. geek vs. nerd" controversy.

I'll leave that to great thinkers like John Hodgman. ;)

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the reason alot of prop makers will not touch tk armor with a 10 foot pole is it seems that every good tk armor and helmet gets recasted and some on here are proud of that fact. there are some VERY good tk armor makers on here so why recast thier work?? they already do a good job and the recast is usually worse than the original.

 

 

to the people that say the prop makers don't own the IP rights, you are just looking for a reason to recast someone elses work. because you are too stupid or too lazy to sculpt it yourself.

 

 

support the poeple who make the costumes you wear!!!! because without them you would be wearing rubie's crap.

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No one can stop recasting. The Pandora's box is open. Education is the key. Quality and trust yes... top notch. That comes through research and talking to troopers that know things. Ebay is flat out evil, but again... LFL is gracious enough to let us even sell stuff. Try that with DC or Marvel. Good luck.

Bootleg is bootleg.

 

 

The mere mention of the word 'recast' will ALWAYS provoke debate no matter what.

My personal opinion is that we should always protect an artist / prop makers unique work regardless

of whether its considered 'official' or 'unofficial' by Uncle George and his team.

These talented people have poured the heart and soul into bringing something into existence that

in many cases could only be found on paper or in a CGI programme somewhere and should for this

achievement alone deserve the respect and protection of the communities that they are involved with.

The Stormtrooper costume is in many cases is a very grey area. :blink:

With the exception of 'fan made' or scratch built sculpts, all screen derived suits originated from the same sources,

which no matter what way you slice 'n' dice it was recast from Lucas originated parts.

This is where the ground gets shaky for some people, because they don't consider the person who

first recast the Lucas parts of having any rights over their work because they never had permission to

reproduce and distribute a design that was and is affectively owned by LFL.

No matter the rights and wrongs of this stand point the fact is that without Matt -TE we would not have

had GF, AP, GINO, and certain parts of RT-MOD and the progression and evolution of the hobby would be

less advanced then it is right now.

 

As Nathan said, the genie is out of the bottle now and we can't put the cork back in, its all gone way too far

for that, so the only thing anyone can do now is to educate, inform, advise and hope that others will see things for what they are

and make good use of the information that they have been given.

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And the possibility that armour parts were recast from other producers, though I don't know enough about that. Some-one care to fill me in via PM?

 

 

Aaron, the history to this is (and it doesnt need to be via pm)

 

Ainsworth initially claimed that he sculpted the Helmet based on a "single RMQ drawing". He claimed that he sculpted most of the armor although said that the studio "had provided him with some clay sculpts of the body sections".

 

THEN came the court case and he revised his position by saying that his associate Nick Pemberton had sculpted a clay Helmet but that his mould was not based on that (crazy!. He did agree that the armor was sculpted by the Studio (Brian Muir).

 

Based on photographs of the clay helmet sculpt, and testiments from a number of people (including Liz Moore's boyfriend at that time), the Judge strangely AGREED that Pemberton sculpted the helmet and not Liz Moore - apparently based solely on the colour of the clay used. However I dont think anyone outside of the case actually believes this to be correct and I am sure LFL will contest this point again when the case goes back to court for the appeal.

 

That issue aside (and I can understand peoples anger), I personally don't think that Ainsworth/SDS could be labeled "recasters", irrespective of the source of their armor moulds - when other replica armor makers are held in high esteem. However the issue of recasting is always one where people disagree so I suppose everyone's got their own views on this

 

Cheers

 

Jez

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It all boils down to respect for the artist. Do we have a legal leg to stand on? Not really. If somebody copies a helmet of mine, i know that i cant take them to court, but that doesnt make the recasters actions right. For example, if my best friend slept with my wife, i couldnt sue him either. Does that make his actions right??? NO, it doesnt!! His actions are totally disrespectful. I'll give you another example. You study your butt of for an exam and the dude next to you copies all your answers. Now you pass with flying colors and so does he. The difference is you spent countless nights losing sleep while you studied and he didnt have to do anything but copy your paper. Would that make you angry?? I know i would be. It really sickens me when i see the comments made by Nathan and it sickens me more when i see the people that agree with him. It seems to me that the 501st membership is losing its respect for the people that supply them with good quality armor. I hear people talk about educating new members about how bad recasting is, but then the pro-recasters pop up and spoil everything. All you people that support recasting need to think of the long term, because before you know it, all youll have are recasters and no artists to make new props.

 

I have already made serious considerations about not producing anymore new SW items. I will keep making the stuff i already have, but as far as making new helmets goes. Im done.

 

BTW, for those of you using the "Uncle George is watching us" line. You can let that scare tactic go. He will never shut the 501st down. Why shut down a group of fans that promote your stuff for free???? That would be a stupid move, dont you think? He doesnt have to pay for armor and he doesnt have to pay for actors. We keep SW in the public eye and its all free for him! Your scare tactics are a lame excuse to try and put a damper on recasting discussions and possible solutions.

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No personal attacks guys - consider this a warning before posts are deleted and people are suspended. The topic may be controversial, but that's no excuse to personal attacks.

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