usaeatt2 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Hi guys! I've been sitting on this for a few months, but Ian (Sith Lord) and Brian (Bulldog44) have inspired me with their INCREDIBLE DD builds. This will be a mish-mash of extra parts and some learning, since I've never worked with this material before. I'm very comfortable with metal working, but NOT so much with composites, resins and plastics. First up is the basis of the build from "carbonfibertubeshop.com": Item# LG1430F - 1.5" OD x 1.375" ID x 0.060 wall carbon fiber tube - roll wrapped fabric = $96.19 USD + shipping and handling. It weighs 0.181 lbs/foot. That means I'd need about 5-1/2 feet of the stuff to equal 1 pound. Expensive? Yes. Light? Lighter than titanium tubing. Side by side, it makes my PVC pipe feel like lead. Strong? Many times stronger than steel by weight. Cool? I think so now, but we'll see how the machining operations go... It sure is fun to look at all those microscopic fibers under deep gloss resin! I started by cutting templates with a fresh razor blade along a steel ruler. I laid out the templates and taped off the first cut. I'm going leave a little extra and sand to length (in case the resin chips out along the cut line). That's all for tonight...sorry! Too much at stake here to start cutting when I'm tired. 'Interstellar' tomorrow night and picking up a new dog Saturday morning. Maybe another update Saturday evening... Stay tuned! Aaron 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Jay[TK] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Wow Aaron, what a freaky idea!!! The structure of the carbon fibre really looks nice (and very individual). What a shame it needs to get painted black at some later point - or do you plan to leave it visible? I am very exited to see how this build will go on... You mentioned "mish-mash of extra parts" so will the other parts be made from metal or resin, plastic...? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dday[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think you need to go full real parts! If you go, go big. You will definitely have to change bits a few times while drilling it out so that you do not make any chips along the way. Looks like fun and I am watching this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulldog44[TK] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 This is going to be awesome! That's one expensive tube but it will turn out great. Can't wait to see what different parts you'll use. Breaking new ground here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Batman[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 WOW, WOW, WOW! I'm already imagining what the finished result will be. You've already done basically a real Sterling with all real parts. Will this be ALL carbon fibre? Magazine, sights, cylinders. Yes please.... Drool, drool, drool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sskunky Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Oooohhhh.......... Watching! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly11[Admin] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I am very impressed with your choice of such an extravagant material for this project, I love carbon fibre, have two race bikes (cyclist) made of the stuff. Can't wait for the updates, you may inspire me to attempt the same down the track. Good luck. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The5thHorseman[TK] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) It would be kind of a pity to spoil the extreme lightness of the carbon fiber with heavy real parts. I'm looking forward to see what you'll do with it! Edited November 7, 2014 by The5thHorseman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dday[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Imagine a CF e11 with resin parts, you might not even know it's in your hands, and you'll be checking your holster every 10 seconds thinking someone stole it. The majority of the weight in a real parts build comes from the base gun. My estimate is that a CF tube with real parts will probably work out to be the same weight as a full resin with aluminum tube. So real parts, resin and alu weight = win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 HOLY COW! Thanks for all the spirited responses!!! My FISD dashboard was lit up like a Christmas tree this morning! Wow Aaron, what a freaky idea!!! The structure of the carbon fibre really looks nice (and very individual). What a shame it needs to get painted black at some later point - or do you plan to leave it visible? I am very exited to see how this build will go on... You mentioned "mish-mash of extra parts" so will the other parts be made from metal or resin, plastic...? I love the look of the fiber. Painting over it WILL hurt. There would be A LOT of controversy and ultimately, no FISD approval if I left the receiver unpainted. Maybe I can airbrush it with a dark, translucent color so it looks flat black from 10 feet, but allows the carbon fiber to peek through when seen up close? Mish-mash means Doopy, DVH, metal, plastic, Sterling and whatever else works. I think you need to go full real parts! If you go, go big. You will definitely have to change bits a few times while drilling it out so that you do not make any chips along the way. Looks like fun and I am watching this one! Wow, some of my real parts were "real-ly" heavy - like the magazine housing. While you can't get better than real parts, I think I'm going for the ultimate in light-weight on this one. Going from one extreme to the other. I'm curious if it will be necessary to change bits or not... My step bit ("Golden Christmas Tree" - thanks Andy Pope, I'll NEVER get that out of my head! ) made it through the entire steel pipe build just fine. Not like new, but still quite sharp. Lube every hole, you know... This is going to be awesome! That's one expensive tube but it will turn out great. Can't wait to see what different parts you'll use. Breaking new ground here. Thanks! I can hope and maybe inspire someone with a better skill set for this... From what I've seen in your build, it might be possible your resin parts are MORE accurate than real parts... WOW, WOW, WOW!I'm already imagining what the finished result will be. You've already done basically a real Sterling with all real parts. Will this be ALL carbon fibre? Magazine, sights, cylinders. Yes please.... Drool, drool, drool. Man, wouldn't THAT be awesome? 100% carbon fiber. I might get a little "misty" if I saw that. I'm new to carbon fiber, but I don't think you can make sharp corners with it - kinda like fiberglass. Corners and edges must have a slight radius. I'm not positive, but I think that's how it goes. I am very impressed with your choice of such an extravagant material for this project, I love carbon fibre, have two race bikes (cyclist) made of the stuff.Can't wait for the updates, you may inspire me to attempt the same down the track.Good luck. Thanks! I'm gonna need all the luck I can get to do the proper justice with this... It would be kind of a pity to spoil the extreme lightness of the carbon fiber with heavy real parts. I'm looking forward to see what you'll do with it! As stated above, I think I'm going for the ultimate in light-weight on this one. Going from one extreme to the other. Imagine a CF e11 with resin parts, you might not even know it's in your hands, and you'll be checking your holster every 10 seconds thinking someone stole it. The majority of the weight in a real parts build comes from the base gun. My estimate is that a CF tube with real parts will probably work out to be the same weight as a full resin with aluminum tube. So real parts, resin and alu weight = win! LOL, I'll probably be checking every 10 seconds anyway... I MIGHT use real parts for some of the SMALL externals, but definitely not things like the magazine housing or bolt. With the work I've seen on some of the recent resin builds, I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference on the spot. BUT, you make an interesting point for a "win". Hopefully, others will jump in and try this. The carbon fiber tube is pretty much IDENTICAL to the steel tube I used on my other build. Same OD, ID and wall thickness...plus stronger and lighter. THAT'S a win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dday[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) You can make sharp edges with carbon fiber... well sharpish. You just need to have a form to lay them in, or on... but I am pretty sure it will end up being very very very.. very expensive to do this. I've seen car hoods with some pretty sharp, tight edges. Edited November 7, 2014 by Dday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Batman[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 You can make sharp edges with carbon fiber... well sharpish. You just need to have a form to lay them in, or on... but I am pretty sure it will end up being very very very.. very expensive to do this. You've got the E-11 molds Derrek. Whip up some cf parts for us will you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dday[501st] Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 You've got the E-11 molds Derrek. Whip up some cf parts for us will you! Oh god, these molds are not the molds you are looking for... move along 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illusionz_09[TK] Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 this should look amazing when finished. Can't wait to see the progress. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 this should look amazing when finished. Can't wait to see the progress. Good Luck! SHOULD being the operative word here. I don't know if I can pull it off, but I'll try my best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Batman[501st] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 SHOULD being the operative word here. I don't know if I can pull it off, but I'll try my best. No pressure Aaron.... You've only got the whole FISD watching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 We had to "put down" our 17 year old, happy Husky/German Shepherd mix about 2 months ago. He got lymphomas and things went downhill fast. You really find out how much of a "man" you are when you have to put down an old friend... We've always had 'rescue' dogs and this guy showed up at a friend's house about a month ago. He was a stray and kept coming around for food. He was obviously owned by someone at some point because he sits, shakes, lays down, rolls over and generally LOVES everyone he meets. My friend asked around the neighborhood and posted classified ads. Nobody claimed him. We went and got him today. He's a REALLY happy guy and his name is Booth. Here's a crumby cell phone shot of my wife getting ready to spoil him: Bought a few tools this afternoon and literally plunged into carbon fiber. New 32 tpi hack saw blades, diamond cut off wheels and some glass/tile drill bits. Also got some carbide grinding bits. I started by using the hacksaw to cut the pipe to length. I taped over my cut line, re-measured the marks and cut it. Wow. Much easier than I thought. Feels kinda like cutting really dense drywall/gypsum. The carbon fibers are very brittle. I guess sawing is kind of like snapping microscopic glass rods. Here's the pile of fiber filings I swept off my work bench after using the hacksaw. I squared up the edge of the pipe on a belt sander, then I carefully aligned and taped the paper templates. Letting the templates hang down like curtains, I sprayed the back sides with 3M super 77 spray adhesive, then carefully rolled them onto the tube. I did a little research online and read many suggestions about drilling carbon fiber at high speeds. I set my drill press to run at the fastest setting - ready for this? 3100 RPM. I'm not gonna say I liked it, but it worked. For comparison, I drilled my steel receiver at about 300 RPM. I was also very concerned about carbon fiber dust and didn't really like the idea of spraying water on a bit spinning at 3100 RPM. I duct taped a shop vac hose to my drill press vise and turned it on. I started by drilling all the pilot holes with an 1/8" glass/tile bit. All the dust got sucked up while it was being created. I was quite pleased with this simple set up. It kept the template clear so I could see what I was doing, only took a minute to set up and NO DUST. Next, I moved to a step bit. This is the exact same bit I used on my steel pipe build. I marked a stop with a red Sharpie and set a stop on my drill press. It was amazing how fast the bit zipped through the carbon fiber, but I could tell it was getting dull about halfway through the holes... Good news? All the holes are drilled. Bad news? I think my step bit is trashed. It's REALLY shiny though... You can DEFINITELY tell where I started and stopped. The first row of holes (bottom row in the picture) are pretty clean... The last row of holes (row above) need a ton of clean up. You can tell the drill was ripping the fibers instead of cutting them as the bit got dull. I probably could have eliminated A LOT of this problem by "backing up" the holes while drilling, but that would have required finding a scrap of something to fit precisely inside the carbon fiber tube. Maybe just as easy to clean them up. Plus it gives me a chance to inspect and "touch up" each hole. That's where Dremel grinding bits come in... More after dinner... https://i.imgur.com/hlvI6z5.jpg Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 No pressure Aaron.... You've only got the whole FISD watching. Seriously? I think it's just the usual suspects... at least that's what I'm telling myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK bondservnt[501st] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 as usual. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) as usual. LOL, nice one, Vern!!! I got a big laugh out of this when I read it. You're definitely one of the usual suspects! Edited November 9, 2014 by usaeatt2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usaeatt2 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Carbon fiber is tough stuff... It wore the titanium coating off the step bit in about an hour. The edges used to be razor sharp, but now they're smooth and dull. I guess this is a "junker" bit now. Here's the carnage: To clean up the holes, I didn't trust myself with the Dremel, and again, I didn't want to deal with the dust problem. I've seen a few guys (like DarkCMF, Bulldog44 and Sith Lord) do some wicked accurate work with a Dremel tool, but I didn't want to try it. So...I came up with kind of a crazy solution to do it by hand. I wanted to use a 7/16 Dremel grinding stone, but I wanted to use it like a rat-tail file. I chucked the bit into a T-handle tap wrench. This allowed me to plunge it through the holes, rotate and push/pull like a file. Worked like a charm. Like I said, the carbon fibers are very brittle. I could plunge my tool through the hole and when I pulled it back through, a lot of the fibers broke. I cleaned up the rest using a filing motion, then kind of rotated the bit around the underside of the hole. Here's a shot of the tool coming out of the hole and dragging the fibers with it: "Filing" and spinning. See all the fibers falling off? And the result: I have to tell you, the fibers itch like fiberglass. Same concept. Drives me nuts when it gets between my fingers. After I finished all the hand work, I washed my hands about 5 times, till they felt normal again. Thoughts moving forward... There are tiny little ridges around the edges of most of the holes. I'm assuming these were caused by the step bit getting hot against the resin while drilling the holes. I could EASILY knock the ridges down by sanding the outside of the tube. Something like 400 grit should do the trick. BUT, if I do that, I'll lose the glossy "carbon fiber" look and likely obscure most of the fiber pattern. I can't decide whether to do it or not. I'm going to have to cross this bridge sooner or later, but I was hoping it would be much later...like right before paint. I think flat black parts would POP against a glossy carbon fiber tube...just wanted to see it. I guess the holes will be covered by t-tracks, but I'll have to attempt to ignore my OCD until I install the t-tracks...it's gonna bug me. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The5thHorseman[TK] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Your work is really too clean for a human being... And about the lip around the holes, you will have to sand a part of the pipe for the bayonet lug area so i guess you can wait until then to take the decision to sand the whole thing or not. I wonder though, how will you handle the rear lock on the pipe for the end cap as the OD isn't the same there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Batman[501st] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 There are tiny little ridges around the edges of most of the holes. What do you guys think? It's not just build up of melted CF that would just break off by hand or cutting off with a blade to preserve the weave underneath. I'm actually surprised to see it flake and shred so much. I've worked with carbon fibre a bit (with RC cars) and haven't come across it doing that before? Different type of CF obviously. Your work is really too clean for a human being... And about the lip around the holes, you will have to sand a part of the pipe for the bayonet lug area so i guess you can wait until then to take the decision to sand the whole thing or not. I wonder though, how will you handle the rear lock on the pipe for the end cap as the OD isn't the same there? My guess is a DVH kit is in his possession . Rear end cap and inner bolt works perfectly for 40mm pipe with about 3mm wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The5thHorseman[TK] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 My guess is a DVH kit is in his possession . Rear end cap and inner bolt works perfectly for 40mm pipe with about 3mm wall. That's not what i meant. I talked about the OD increase of the pipe for the end cap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Batman[501st] Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 That's not what i meant. I talked about the OD increase of the pipe for the end cap: Yep. DVH kit covers that. It has a bit that goes into the pipe, then another bit that extends for the end cap to screw onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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