LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Hi , I know this is gonna stir a lot of people but i was always wondering if the cap n back where really that bumpy like on some versions i have seen. But now i have seen the si-man helmet and i am inclined to believe that the bumps are not screen accurate. If i remember correctly most molds that are floating around have been cast from the inside of helmets and again ( correct me if i am wrong) many defects came into the mold when the casting was done because the insides of the original helmets were not the best looking thing thus "maybe" altering the real look of the cap n back. I think there was some bumps and stuff but not to the point of what some people are telling to other people.... I have an ATA and people know where the ATA comes from and what it looks like but while still a nice Cap, "if" you compare it to the si-man cap you are gonna see that there are big details missing like the sharp edge under the traps and the fact that the rear and side traps are almost all softened out vs they are real sharp on the si-amn helmet.... But most buckets out there are like that and i would not trade in my ATA for anything in the world but if you are looking for accuracy... the si-man helmet has shattered a lot of things about the details of the helmet casts we know about.... let the burning begin! p.s I wonder if ATA is considering modifying his bucket though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vecspeed12 Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Looks bumpy here. http://starwarshelmets.com/original-stormtrooper-stop-that-ship-helmet.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) well you be the judge: si-man another link Edited June 3, 2011 by LittleOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormtrooperguy[501st] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 not every original helmet is going to be the same. these were not exactly made with tender loving care. i would imagine that the donor helmet the ata is derived from was bumpy, where the si-man was not. i wouldn't really think that either proves or disproves the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK bondservnt[501st] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 I personally think that if a helmet is cast from the inside, it will not completely capture the smoothness of the paint and finish on the outside. most likely the outsides were sanded and primed and painted. thus resulting in the shiny versions. you can clearly see bumpyness in the film, not just as much as we see from the copies made. I'd vote for a combination of smoothness and bumps. just not as pronounced. for the ABS helmets I'm almost sure they would be smoother. but the HDPE most likely had a haircell finish and probably cooled unevenly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daetrin[Admin] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 "you can clearly see bumpyness in the film, not just as much as we see from the copies made." Vern - can you post those shots? I looked at all the hi-def caps I have and while I saw chips, scuffs, and bad paint, could not find any bumps like one sees on an ATA or TE2. Maybe my eyes aren't as good, but it would be nice to at least see the pix you're seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK bondservnt[501st] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) like I said, the outside was sanded, but you can see some of the defects. I have no caps. I think that the bumpyness is caused by the way the primer, paint and outside of the helmet are different than the inside. so this is basically a comparison between the inside of a helmet, and the outside. I would say that you can see on screen the difference in finish between a painted HDPE and an abs... as well! Edited June 3, 2011 by TK Bondservnt 2392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeR Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 They were all different. You cannot really make any statements about SW props with certainty without seeing every single variation. Bumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daetrin[Admin] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Does anyone else have a screen cap then where you can see the bumpiness? I'm curious, as it's one thing to notice it on a prop you are holding in your hands, but can you even notice it on screen? This is a good distinction to make as some aim for one, others the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) If you look at the picture Joe posted you can see that the paint job is real thick, a lot of people are saying that the hdpe plastic was not taking the paint real well…it looks like it made a crust over the helmet rather than stick to it. I have painted my own helmet which is hips and the only thing I had to worry about is runs, the paint never looked crusty unless I messed up in some areas and over sprayed and such , that was bad painting techniques and that is besides the point… From the looks of it the helmet that Joe used as an example was badly painted and over sprayed…I guess when they guys were painting them they saw that the paint did not stick well and painted over and over and over until they had white coverage and then let it dry, hoping for the best. If you look at the areas that have flaked off paint, it is smooth; if it had been bumpy it would still show… I know that there is some spot on the helmet that shows a few actual bumps, but I think they were actual mold defects and these bumps show on different helmets at the same places so it is a mold defect or whatever you want to qualify it has. Now it would be nice to know if this would have any impact on the centurion program…the helmets have a bumpy look because of the paint factor, not the moulding process IMHO…which is a double edge sword because you want to get the screen look while maintaining the making of the helmet process intact…a I am sure that recasting, glue and paint and mold damage contributed to the fact that the cap n back became bumpy at some point. P.s according to legend, the empire helmets were repainted for the movie, addign one more layer to the flakie paint from anh...so bad paint job over an other one.... Edited June 3, 2011 by LittleOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john danter Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) Is that bumpy appearance due to the paint and not the HDPE though? I'm on my iPhone ATM but where the paint had chipped, it doesn't look bumpy to me. I mean, look at the chip above the ear. It's all warped and wrinkled but the chipped part looks smooth as So is it paint or the plastic? Edit: Sorry LittleOne. I agree, I think it's the paint notthe actual plastic Edited June 3, 2011 by john danter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) I am no expert at all, i am just saying that looking at the si-man helmet now versus what some people are selling and claiming as pretty much the real deal as far as accuracy it does not ad up.... maybe some people who are actually making the Cap N back's can shed some light on this... and case in point i remember that the hero helmets are not reaaly bumpy in the movie because they did not need paint ( correct me if i am wrong) so the bumpy caps are the results of the paint and other stuff i mentionned before.... Edited June 3, 2011 by LittleOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john danter Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Also, we've had this debate before. Personally I believe we should aim for what was intended not how it actually was/is 30yrs later The public don't want to see chips, bumps and cracks. I've heard some pass negative comments on such replications as they sadly don't understand. They expect to see shinny pristine soldiers. Hardcore fans do understand, but the majority of the public (who we do this for) don't and would think a swarm of Bees attacked you while you painted your lid. Great as a project, not as a 501st wearable public facing TK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) Also, we've had this debate before. Personally I believe we should aim for what was intended not how it actually was/is 30yrs later The public don't want to see chips, bumps and cracks. I've heard some pass negative comments on such replications as they sadly don't understand. They expect to see shinny pristine soldiers. Hardcore fans do understand, but the majority of the public (who we do this for) don't and would think a swarm of Bees attacked you while you painted your lid. Great as a project, not as a 501st wearable public facing TK I get the original idea that you want the helmets to look like they were meant to be back then, but i have seen some people on the RPF.com trying to go above and beyond on this with the si-man helmet...after reading a thread on the helmet and suit i made a thread where i discussed the pros and cons of trying enough and trying to much to reproduce the helmets and the fact that you cannot reproduce the helmets as they are or were , just emulate them and i got a nice kinda kick in the ____ section response on that... the guys wanted to reproduce everything from the color of the plastic used in the helmet up to the kind of plastic used to make them and i made it clear to them that we are not in 1976 anymore and that you will not be able to reproduce the helmet in the way they wanted to reproduce it and they got dissed and slapped me in the face so i let the conversation go at that point... but the bumps are another issue if you ask me....the bumps are common on most kits and it is a feature that i think should be talked about.... to answer another point you made John, are you doing this for you or everybody else? I got my helmet now and i dirtied it up to look like it had seen a bit of battle, yes it is nice to make it look cool for others who know star wars but are not complete hardcore fans...but i did it for myself not for joe on the side curb who thinks i look cool in the helmet or suit... and for the sake of accuracy and if we go with the badge requirements on this site it would be nice to know where people stand on this... the centurion program seem to be the program where you would go way above and beyond in terms of accuracy for the movies... Edited June 3, 2011 by LittleOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daetrin[Admin] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 The Centurion is meant to go as far as one can with a - now this is the important part - a Legion approved costume. The Legion's standards are not modeled on 100% prop replication. While there is much overlap in between prop replicators and the 501st Legion, they are not synonymous as the goals are not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) The Centurion is meant to go as far as one can with a - now this is the important part - a Legion approved costume. The Legion's standards are not modeled on 100% prop replication. While there is much overlap in between prop replicators and the 501st Legion, they are not synonymous as the goals are not the same. mmmm ....when i read the requirements, the more it goes int the list the more it seems that you are trying to get the accurate screen look... i guess i am misreading the intent of the list of requirements..so if i take your word then there could possibly be another level above centurion...that of complete and 100% screen accurate achievements...probably impossible to achieve but who knows... Edited June 3, 2011 by LittleOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashrazor Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 where light scuffing and chips are deemed acceptable for centurion, i couldn't see approving a helmet like this yes it is "prop accurate" but it is very far from being "screen accurate" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 where light scuffing and chips are deemed acceptable for centurion, i couldn't see approving a helmet like this yes it is "prop accurate" but it is very far from being "screen accurate" why? i thought that helmet was in Empire? it cant get any more accurate than that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locitus[Admin] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) why? i thought that helmet was in Empire? it cant get any more accurate than that.... Because it doesn't look like that in the movie, it has had additional damage done to it after the film was shot. Edited June 3, 2011 by Locitus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daetrin[Admin] Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 mmmm ....when i read the requirements, the more it goes int the list the more it seems that you are trying to get the accurate screen look... i guess i am misreading the intent of the list of requirements..so if i take your word then there could possibly be another level above centurion...that of complete and 100% screen accurate achievements...probably impossible to achieve but who knows... There can't be anything above Centurion. We could give a prop replication award for costumes that faithfully emulate the actual props but at that point it's not clear that you have a Legion approvable costume anymore. Another good example is clones. You can't have a 100% screen-faithful clone for the very fact that the human head and body can't bend the way they made them on screen in several shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashrazor Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 i look at it like this.. both pics are of the same person, but after many years they look completely different. the same can be said for almost anything including helmets that sat in storage for years. the helmet above may have been used in ESB but no longer looks as it did when it was actually filmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleOne Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 completely agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Having examined the SiMan helmet personally and owning a Gino V2 bumpy, I can say 100% the bumps on the V2 match the bumps on the SiMan. I had to hold the Siman helmet up against the light to capture the detail, so it is there, just not as prominent as other helmets. In my opinion, all original ANH helmets will have the same pattern of bumps to some degree or another as it is part of the mould. I don't believe it has anything to do with flaking or bubbling paint. The bumps can be seen from inside the plastic so they must be on the moulds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turrican Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Would it possible to add this on your moulds Paul? Would say a nice feature more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopermaster Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 It would be nice but far too much work to try and get the same pattern. I am far too busy to even consider it unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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