The recasting thread

[Onigiri[TK]]

So was there an agreement to recast the TE suit? The term recast gets thrown around a lot more loosely around here I have noticed then what is generally accepted in the hobby and it raises all sorts of flags.

[FON]

Nope, no agreements were struck what so ever. Most members here fail to care about the honor system in which this hobby is based, nor the ppl that bring them these items. Its certainly a free for all compared to the RPF.

 

Its a shame really, it used to be a nice forum..

[Onigiri[TK]]

Good to know. As a former professional propmaker Im making mental notes of who I will and will not do business with. Recasters are teh bottom feeders of this hobby and the reason why so many no longer offer things. Why put your own money in to sculpting or acquiring something when some no talent can come along and steal from you. This isnt the grey area that so many people who value their toys more then their integrity like to point out. It takes one of two means in this hobby to bring something 'legitimately' to the table...money or talent. You either sculpt or you pay for it. By pay for it I dont mean you buy a suit of armor from someone and then knock it off.

This lowlife bottom feeding mentality is destroying this hobby and I am dumbfounded that it not only allowed here but apparently condoned. If this is indeed what CAP has done then he is on my radar as is anybody who does business with him and Ill make it a point to let all the other boards I am a member of know too. I tend to keep a low profile but I am still very much tied in to not only this hobby but the profession and recasters are an automatic black mark and they go on teh list of untouchables as sdo those who put money in their pockets. And before someone pops up with some lame as hell excuses about recasting lucasfilms save your breath. I know the expense that Matt put in to making his armor as well as the time and effort and money that folks like TN and RT put in to making theirs and POSs that recast them because they have neither the time, skill or money to do anything other then steal from others are worthless sacks that should be taken outside....my opinion of this place just took a nose dive.

 

 

 

Nope, no agreements were struck what so ever. Most members here fail to care about the honor system in which this hobby is based, nor the ppl that bring them these items. Its certainly a free for all compared to the RPF.

 

Its a shame really, it used to be a nice forum..

[riveting]

Although I would'nt ever condone or buy something recast myself, dosn't an open forum like this give the oppertunity to educate us to all? to what exactly is out there on the open market, such as the CAP armor & several other's & also inform us of those who are engaging in this practice?

[Onigiri[TK]]

Yes and no. You can inform about what is out there wityhout letting the individual use the board to make money off the practice. The RPF for instance BANS recasters AND lets everyone know what it was they were recasting. This is a hobby that must police itself.

[FON]

Exactly.

[riveting]

Yes and no. You can inform about what is out there wityhout letting the individual use the board to make money off the practice. The RPF for instance BANS recasters AND lets everyone know what it was they were recasting. This is a hobby that must police itself.

 

 

I completly agree with you on all points !

 

I just wanted to try & say, "It's still a nice open forum" Threads like these do inform? & do assist in the education of Caveat emptor for all. I hope!

[Runnriottt]

Before the thread gets locked, and more noses get stuck in the air over the cast and recast same ol same ol...

 

Climb down off the high horse and think. Its all recast at one time or another. Its all under the table.

 

Want a non recast suit, buy a TM or FX. Unless you nail down a set off of Uncle Gorge himself, Its recasted. Slice it how you want it, judge me how you want for saying it.

 

Buy armor from propmakers YOU trust. Slamming others armor for there choise of makers aint the point.

 

Its palstic.

[Onigiri[TK]]

Nope thats a straight up cop out and that mentality will get you banned on just about any prop board out there because it DESTROYS the hobby and prevents makers from bringing things to the table.

The fact is that folks like MATT invested large sums of money to get their hands on something screen used, modify, make bucks and put it out there. Low life recasters invest NOTHING but the time it takes to get their hands on the product and knock it off and if you cant see the difference then its not my horse that is high but rather yours that is hobbled and on its knees. Just about every other board out there knows the difference. and what your questionable ethics suggest is that nobody will bother to bring anything new to this hobby because people such as yourself make excuses for others to simply steal from those people so why should they bother? and as far as high horse go you really wanna piss me off spew that crap again. Im no longer a propmaker because of how hard it is to make a decent living at it these days and when you add in scum sucking lowlife a$$holes that recast and steal it makes it a waste of time.

Whoever would lock this thread is not only a coward but morally bereft in this hobby. Take this garbage to another propboard and find out how quickly your banned and thrown out. High horse? Try getting off your knees and investing tens of thousands of dollars in to making something before you say something as assinine as its only plastic. Contemptible. Lock this thread and Ill make sure every other board that deals with prop collecting, t501st etc knows teh type of behavior allowed and condoned here and by who.

Disgraceful.

 

 

 

Before the thread gets locked, and more noses get stuck in the air over the cast and recast same ol same ol...

 

Climb down off the high horse and think. Its all recast at one time or another. Its all under the table.

 

Want a non recast suit, buy a TM or FX. Unless you nail down a set off of Uncle Gorge himself, Its recasted. Slice it how you want it, judge me how you want for saying it.

 

Buy armor from propmakers YOU trust. Slamming others armor for there choise of makers aint the point.

 

Its palstic.

[Runnriottt]

Council Resolution 1: Legion's Stance on Recasting

Vote completed on 03/13/2006: 35 Yes; 10 No; 3 Abstain

Reference Link

Resolution: The 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.

 

 

Did we miss this post?

[Onigiri[TK]]

Nope I didnt miss anything and it doesnt make it any more right and once again COP OUT.

You can hide behind whatever moral ambiguity helps you sleep at night. Thieves are thieves and when someone is ripping off myself or those that I know Im gonna call em on it. Dont like it? Too bad. What it says between the lines is this "We know its wrong but we're not going to do anything about it because our plastic is worth more then our integrity"

Way to represent.

When the group fails the moral litmus then the individual has to take a stand. The 501st chooses not prosecute even though they know its wrong but nowhere does it say that the individuals have to allow it to go unchallenged.

It damages the hobby as a whole when this sort of thievery occurs and goes unchecked because of the moral myopia of fanboys more concerned with their plastic then with doing whats right

 

Council Resolution 1: Legion's Stance on Recasting

Vote completed on 03/13/2006: 35 Yes; 10 No; 3 Abstain

Reference Link

Resolution: The 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.

 

 

Did we miss this post?

[Runnriottt]

You win dude... Call me what ever names you want for my opinion.

[Guest TK-2416]

I respect this and understand all the good arguments.. But where does it leave us? What is acceptable? TM, TE (before he sold his molds?), TE2, AP, RT, GF.... I know this is not a part of FISD to recommend og approve this, but anyway...

[riveting]

I respect this and understand all the good arguments.. But where does it leave us? What is acceptable? TM, TE (before he sold his molds?), TE2, AP, RT, GF.... I know this is not a part of FISD to recommend og approve this, but anyway...

 

 

I suspect it leaves us using our moral code & values in making a decision that we find ethically acceptable.

[FON]

Easy, its clear as black and white. If you want a Helmet or suit with 'original' pedegree, go for a TE/TE2, or a Gino. These are the ONLY people so far that have invested REAL effort, and REAL money in bringing these items to us.

 

The custom sculpted stuff is ok aswell, because like the blokes above they acually put REAL effort in making the items. IE - TM's suits. They are perfectly fine, and happens to be the BEST custom sculpt out there. It can easily stand its ground with the above mentioned 'original cast' suits..

 

Even though new suits are released every so often, if you do your homework, you can tell the difference.. and know who your actually supporting.

[Runnriottt]

No problem 'dude'...you chose to come after me with the high horse commentary...you stepped up so you shouldnt be too surprised. To me its about way more then plastic.

If you think I directly attacked you, you have bigger problems then me. If I wanted to attack anyone direct, I would name you. It was a general statement.

I guess my morals dont line up with yours, and I am a lesser person for it. Roger.

 

Oh yea, we were talking about CAP armor.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Here is the deal:

 

501st Policy

As stated the 501st cannot enact a policy on recasting. Thus, we (FISD Staff) cannot ban someone because they are recasting, nor can we prohibit the sale of recasted items. There is no discussion about this. If you don't like it, you must talk to your GCO to get a change through LC, or else run for an LC post yourself. End of line, debate over.

 

FISD Policy

We as FISD staff do have a responsibility to ensure people are educated and that all information is upfront. This means we are well within our authority to point out and highlight any recasters, and we can also enforce a policy that in a for sale thread people have to indicate the origins of their item. This something we should and will be doing, and if sellers don't like being called out then they are free not to sell their goods here. End of line, debate over.

 

Who's a recaster?

Anyone who doesn't create their own molds from scratch. TM and RT and the only open sellers who can claim this. FX can too, but since he doesn't sell direct you'd need to ensure you're getting an "original" from a valid reseller and not your garrison mate who's recasted FX, or some random guy on Ebay.

 

It can be argued that GINO and TE2 are "legitimate" recasters as they actually negotiated "rights" to molds, whether by in kind bargain or straight monetary compensation. They are the only ones I know of in this fuzzy zone who are "protected" from being recast and from any accusations of being recasters because of how they got where they are.

 

AP is also an edge case in that the source of his molds isn't making armor anymore, and to be honest I'm not 100% how sanctioned the transaction was. Also, he's changed parts enough that it may not be considered the same anyway. This would be an interesting conversation.

 

Everyone that’s current selling is recasting, pure and simple. FON hit it on the head, really.

 

Is recasting moral?

Personally I believe it's stealing when we use this word in the proper context. Let's look at clones for example: there are no actual kits out there made to be copied from, so each maker's molds are hand carved. They put in a ton of time and talent making them. There is no question - none - that recasting these people's art is a bad thing.

 

You can get on whatever high horse you want and decry us all as "recasters" or supporting such since "LFL owns all rights", but this is really just an excuse for people to steal others' art and justify their crimes, and their preference over getting armor as cheap as they can, regardless of source.

 

Let's be honest

It's also worth coming to terms in saying that people will defend sellers where they have an emotional connection. When C6 took his items off the market, people felt more OK about using a recast item becase there just wasn't anything comparable, and his stuff was unobtainable. Now that we have Java and C6 making EPII buckets, it's considered bad again.

 

CAP is a weird situation because when he did it TE armor was very expensive and hard to get, so like the C6 example above most turned a blind eye. With TE2 being on the scene, the problem increases mostly due to the circumstances from which TE2 emerged (legit transfer) and also that he's extremely liked and respected by everyone.

 

I think the person in the best position to complain and condemn TE and CAP is TE2 himself. The rest of us have all drawn our POV based on our personal relationships with the individuals, and it seems it's those relationships which dictate which side of the argument we take.

 

That said, I am confidant that if this were about some other topic - like the clones I mentioned - there would be far, far less froom for argument.

 

Next steps

I'm unlocking this thread. If you would like to talk about the CAP situation specifically, you are free to comment. If you want to talk about recasting in general, let's start another topic.

 

If people continue to abuse each other, your posts will be edited or deleted and you could be suspended. There is a way to talk about this without making personal insults.

 

Lastly…

C-E is a non 501st forum. As such it can have an extremely powerful anti-recast policy and enforce it. Same with RPF, PropDen, etc. Again, being a 501st forum we have to abide by 501st rules.

 

If all you care about it cheap armor, then you'll probably go the recast route. If you care about helping ensure we have a healthy prop making ecosystem from which we can enjoy this hobby, you'll probably won't.

[mattastic13[TK]]

Nicely said boss.

[Murray1134[501st]]

Well said, very concise and to the point.

[Exodus[TK]]

Education is our best and (my opinion) only weapon. FISD continues to grow exponentially, its amazing this is only coming up now.

 

We need to teach all these new costuming folks what to look for: quality, craftmanship, longevity of material, strength and above all accuracy.

[Onigiri[TK]]

Good post

FYI saying FX is mastered from scratch..? Nope, but thats a whole other can of worms...the Canadian quarter on the original FX belts was one of GFs tells..he made the original suits for resell for the Cantina until Dale decided to recast him and save some money...some folks who have been around for a few years already know about that and feel free to hit up TE or GF if you have doubts...

This thread is being scrutinized and followed closely on other boards now. Needless to say so far it has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. The RPF thread about THIS thread is now at 14 pages in length and makes THSI thread look tame. As far as CAP in particular well Ive known Matt personally for over a decade so getting the particulars on that wont be overly difficult but this argument was as much about the GENERAL tolerance more then a specific recaster. Matt has never mentioned an agreement to me about CAP having any implied rights to produce this armor but Ill know soon enough.

 

 

Here is the deal:

 

501st Policy

As stated the 501st cannot enact a policy on recasting. Thus, we (FISD Staff) cannot ban someone because they are recasting, nor can we prohibit the sale of recasted items. There is no discussion about this. If you don't like it, you must talk to your GCO to get a change through LC, or else run for an LC post yourself. End of line, debate over.

 

FISD Policy

We as FISD staff do have a responsibility to ensure people are educated and that all information is upfront. This means we are well within our authority to point out and highlight any recasters, and we can also enforce a policy that in a for sale thread people have to indicate the origins of their item. This something we should and will be doing, and if sellers don't like being called out then they are free not to sell their goods here. End of line, debate over.

 

Who's a recaster?

Anyone who doesn't create their own molds from scratch. TM and RT and the only open sellers who can claim this. FX can too, but since he doesn't sell direct you'd need to ensure you're getting an "original" from a valid reseller and not your garrison mate who's recasted FX, or some random guy on Ebay.

 

It can be argued that GINO and TE2 are "legitimate" recasters as they actually negotiated "rights" to molds, whether by in kind bargain or straight monetary compensation. They are the only ones I know of in this fuzzy zone who are "protected" from being recast and from any accusations of being recasters because of how they got where they are.

 

AP is also an edge case in that the source of his molds isn't making armor anymore, and to be honest I'm not 100% how sanctioned the transaction was. Also, he's changed parts enough that it may not be considered the same anyway. This would be an interesting conversation.

 

Everyone that’s current selling is recasting, pure and simple. FON hit it on the head, really.

 

Is recasting moral?

Personally I believe it's stealing when we use this word in the proper context. Let's look at clones for example: there are no actual kits out there made to be copied from, so each maker's molds are hand carved. They put in a ton of time and talent making them. There is no question - none - that recasting these people's art is a bad thing.

 

You can get on whatever high horse you want and decry us all as "recasters" or supporting such since "LFL owns all rights", but this is really just an excuse for people to steal others' art and justify their crimes, and their preference over getting armor as cheap as they can, regardless of source.

 

Let's be honest

It's also worth coming to terms in saying that people will defend sellers where they have an emotional connection. When C6 took his items off the market, people felt more OK about using a recast item becase there just wasn't anything comparable, and his stuff was unobtainable. Now that we have Java and C6 making EPII buckets, it's considered bad again.

 

CAP is a weird situation because when he did it TE armor was very expensive and hard to get, so like the C6 example above most turned a blind eye. With TE2 being on the scene, the problem increases mostly due to the circumstances from which TE2 emerged (legit transfer) and also that he's extremely liked and respected by everyone.

 

I think the person in the best position to complain and condemn TE and CAP is TE2 himself. The rest of us have all drawn our POV based on our personal relationships with the individuals, and it seems it's those relationships which dictate which side of the argument we take.

 

That said, I am confidant that if this were about some other topic - like the clones I mentioned - there would be far, far less froom for argument.

 

Next steps

I'm unlocking this thread. If you would like to talk about the CAP situation specifically, you are free to comment. If you want to talk about recasting in general, let's start another topic.

 

If people continue to abuse each other, your posts will be edited or deleted and you could be suspended. There is a way to talk about this without making personal insults.

 

Lastly…

C-E is a non 501st forum. As such it can have an extremely powerful anti-recast policy and enforce it. Same with RPF, PropDen, etc. Again, being a 501st forum we have to abide by 501st rules.

 

If all you care about it cheap armor, then you'll probably go the recast route. If you care about helping ensure we have a healthy prop making ecosystem from which we can enjoy this hobby, you'll probably won't.

[rogue4ngel]

When I first started contemplating getting armor (ok, I was about 9 when I first contemplated it, but when I finally seriously considered it). There is a great deal of cloak and dagger when attempting to find out any real information that is of any value. 'Read the forums' is the canned response, which for me was fine. I spent 2 weeks delving into the forums and really getting all the information together, but not everyone is going to be that interested.

 

I do appreciate threads like this, though, not so much for the drama that always seem to accompany it, but for the relevant information so I can make educated decisions on my purchases.

 

Thanks for introducing yourself Chris, and giving us a little history on your product.

[Runnriottt]

Onigiri, I cant figure you. You can hate me for the comment I am about to make if you wish.

 

Why start a thread on another forum bashing the group you represent? CAP armor that important to you? Dont buy it. When you are asked about it, tell people not to buy it.

 

Prop boards are just that. Prop boards. This isnt a prop board. This is a board for building and gathering information on costumes. Yes props are a part of it, but not the whole picture. The stance is there, in black and white. I think Admin did a good job of posting that. Waving a "Told you so" post is baffling. I am sure you will quote me and put it up on the other board, so hang me for saying this, I wont be loosing sleep over it ar anything.

 

CAP is making armor. He admits the sorce. I say he has guts to post it. Find that in this "Community"

 

I seemed to have started this whole mess on the comment I made. Wow. Now I have another notch in the ol prop community. Flamed twice in a month.

 

Ill be going back to collecting now. CAP armor is on the list.

[Onigiri[TK]]

Contrary to your assertion this absolutely IS a prop and costume board and when there are people that, like you, have shown a complete disdain for our stance on recasting and then show up there trying to buy from a member then it becomes OBVIOUS why the cross posting. Combine that with the fact that a lot of RPF members are also 501st members and we DONT condone recasting which is why several RPF/501st members are now going to approach the 501st hierarchy and press for a more proactive stance on recasting.

Now...the powers that be have changed the course of this thread to be about CAP and since my arguments are not directed SPECIFICALLY at CAP then I am going to respect their decision and not discuss this anymore here. I think its pretty clear where I stand on the subject and I would rather stay on my 'high horse' then continue to beat a 'dead horse'.

[Runnriottt]

I want a Fang Vader. Not the subject here. Wanna drag me in the mud, cool. I wont be back the the RPF, asked the webmaster to delete my account over this. So blast me all you want. Running down a good bunch of guys in the 501st to me isnt cool. I might get in trouble here, where I like to hang keeping my say. Draw the line in the sand, and defend your side. That what it is all about to you.

Ill stand up for the 501st, you stand on your prop morals.

 

I am finished for good on this topic.