TK bondservnt

well... I must admit that the masters of this craft are truly TM and AP. I've never seen so much referance material... but I'm glad now that I've seen your photos. in the most recent version of the TM armor, it looks like some of your curves are only a little larger than the originals. my only claims about the Ap kit come from my understanding up to this point. the thighs don't have those details at all. if the curves on the TM kit were slightly reduced in depth... then perhaps I'd see that the TM kit is closer to the original form. if the AP lineage was truly Screen Used, then all of these features would be evident. if it was simply a fan sculpt as yours is... then perhaps all of the hobby has been misled as to it's origin? if GF truly cast his bucks from an ESB suit... then it should have had those details? when I look at the forearms I see lot's of differences between AA TM and AP. I don't think I've seen that detail on AA armor... of course it deserves a look at the referance materials. it would be good to get examples of all the armor types lined up and have red circles pointing out the details. as we compare the kits in this thread... I'm sure that everyone will benefit.

I don't think I've ever seen such a closeup as that... from that photograph it looks like the covering strip is moulded into the front face of the armor? you say it's a screen used thigh? where does it come from? ok... let's move on to some screen used Shins... can you show me the ridges and curves?

That clearly shows the outside of the thigh is not matched up at the top. it's like that on the AP kit... if you line up the bottom of the pull at the bottom of the thigh... you get that type of trim. but if you line up the tops of the thigh, you get to trim off the excess at the bottom. that is not the same scene as the control room scene. all this is showing is the outer part of the thigh is lined up shorter at the top on the outside of the left leg. all you're doing is showing that John Mollow's team assembled the armor much differently than most of us put it together. if you look at the shins... there are not ridges and curves like you see on the TM kit.

All this shows is that the trimming is shorter at the top of the thighs. it is NOT pinched... it's just the trimming of the outer part of the thigh. also note that in all your photos the shins don't have the curves or the ridges of the TM kit. the lower legs clearly show from your photos that the shins are sculpted differently and the thighs are sculpted differently on the TM kit. in your photos it is the trimming of the parts on the AP style kit... it is clearly seen! this is a great photographic example of the Ap style trimmed shorter on the outer part of each thigh.

marysville california? I'm in chico... we should troop.

it looks like all you have to do is clamp and glue a strip on the inside, along one edge. then you can apply the proper torque to line up the thighs and forearms. the inside strip comes from the pieces you cut off all the parts and only needs to be about 4mm wide this allows the glue bead to have somthing to bite when you buttseam the edges together. after you've glued the inner strip to one side it acts like a TAB to glue the parts together. make sure that you have the proper leg parts on the correct legs... from the photos it looks like you've got them right. but I'd have to see the backs. after you glue the inner strip, and then have glued the halves together, then you trim the bottoms flush... always line up the parts from the TOP, or from the wrist. trim the bottoms AFTER you've applied the torque and glued them together. then you glue the proper FINISHING STRIPS over the top, lining those up at the top. looks good so far.

you only need all that if you don't apply the proper trimming, and torque to line up the butt end style of trim. the AP kit only needs to be trimmed out to the cut lines and leave a little extra, apply torque, glue and everything lines up fine. if you cut it shorter or smaller to fit like in stukatroopers tutorials then you'll need an iron and such to help line them up. the shins are not duplicates of each other... no leg parts fit inside each other, only the bicep, and forearms are the same pieces. and if you look in the film, some of the armor is assembled incorrectly... so that shows the variations.

this is a celebration of the differences... exactly that. I have purchased products from both producers... and I like the differences and opinions of both makers. it's always nice to see the ideas discussed. and you know... if I were not so specific in my dreams of owning as close to the original as one can get: I might have opted for the FX kit back in the day... but I never purchased it because I knew just from my un educated eyes that the FX kit was not the exact same armor I studied in the summer of 1977. I watched the movie about 40-45 times that summer because I wore a series of costumes in exchange for going into the theatre. all the theatre manager wanted was a snack bar purchase and I was good to go. I started making my first e-11 blaster in late 1977 and when Don Post came out with the stormtrooper helmet I was disapointed because it was 'wrong!' now we all know how accurate GL's licensing deals have become! I naturally opted for the AP. I'll most likely get a TM if he goes shadow trooper. would be nice to sit down in a suit. I really like this discussion and have been in talks with TM recently when I purchased ESB handplates from him. soon I will be able to do a dual submission ANH and ESB eib and 501st all at the same time. vern

also to note that photo is from the promo suit, and the movie shot is from empire strikes back. I guess my main point here is that the TM suit simply exaggerates some of the smoother curves on almost every part. in a lot of ways people see it as an "improvement" on the look... but my eye can see the ridges, and the curves he has so gracefully introduced. if you took the proper lighting and cast it onto an AP kit that was assembled the same trimout as the promo suit then you'd get the same shadows as IN THAT PHOTO! so overall people in this hobby have been being told that the AP kit is hard to put together, and in some ways that might be true... TM and AP armor are FUN to put together. I wish people would recognize AP's contribution with banners on their Sig... and such... are there any AP banners on anyone's profile around here?

well... it does not end any discussion... actually it helps to show my opinion about the thighs just as a simple example. from what I see in the above photo used, first of all it looks like the trooper wearing the armor is taller than most, with a larger thigh to belt gap that can be seen on taller troopers. on the left thigh... it was trimmed correctly and glued correctly on the finishing strip. but on the right thigh.. the front edge of the outermost part of the thigh seem to have been trimmed SHORTER, so with the incorrect trimming job done by MOLLO's team... what produces armor that looks like that... is IMPROPERLY matched up, and incorrectly trimmed parts. there is No pinch like that on the armor in the Docking Bay Control room scene. you can see clearly the side profile of HAN SOLO's armor... look there... no mismatched outer thigh. thus no APPARENT PINCH. you can see it in the garbage masher, and other places. in the TM comparison photo I really see all those exaggerated curves that everyone likes about the TM kit. the shadows that are producing those extreme curves are sculpted INTO the look of the TM armor and it's very obvious when you compare those photos to the TM sculpt. if you look at the curves of the TM sculpt, and the AP cast, in the same lighting... you'd see that the AP is going to give you the right curves... True... TM is a very curve and swoop type of armor... and that's what makes it so "sexy" in some people's minds... I just brought up this discussion... and the folks over there in the UK certainly have my respect and admiration. after all... every single part I've purchased is from the UK or from CANADA... so the whole global thing is pretty big. I also have purchased parts from AP and from TM... so I'm in the same camp as far as it goes. This is not about "what is right" this is about showcasing the differences between the BEST 2 kits in stormtrooper Lore.. I have gotten permission from TM owners, and AP owners... so soon we'll see photos that will show more information than on just one shadowed photo used as comparison. I look forward to much more photographic comparison and you'll soon see a lot of photos on the subject. so let's all praise both AP and TM for all of this... because that's what this thread is all about. regards, vern

You can get resin parts for the Grips... or you can even purchase a real trigger group and assembly. if you would like to have more information on just where to get original starling parts for the MK4... then I can help. PM me for all the details. in the real sterling there is a hollow handle "of sorts" in the grips. a hex head bolt holds the grips on from the bottom. I can show you where to get replica, and real parts. actually the receiver tube using PVC pipe is about 3-5 mm too large... and it's enough of a different size to need a larger holster cut. The best way to make an accurate receiver tube would be out of metal. for example Doopy Doos . com has "PVC blaster finishing kits" that type of blaster finishing kit comes with everything you'd need to accurately finish up a e-11 blaster except for the scope rail, and the hengstler counter. regards, vern

whoever said it was an AP or GF kit is really not the owner of those kits... anyone with an AP kit or a TM kit knows instantly what they're looking at. The forearms, shoulder bells and belt with it's moulded screw cover all look completely FAN made. this fan sculpted armor is really not that bad... considering how old it is! you can do a pretty good job for a costume on halloween and such... but for much more... it would not be like getting into an AP or a TM kit. have fun...

just use E-6000 glue, it's flexible and made for plastics. it's the best. vern

I would purchase either a TM kit or an AP kit. it's the only way to get the best. don't mess around with doing it yourself. it's way way too much work for the project compared with building up a kit. both TM and AP take quite a bit of fun modeling work. if you want some advise... we can always show you some tutorials on building those kits. that shows the modeling skill needed JUST to assemble the kit. hope this helps. it's way more complex than building a mame emulator cab by the way. my "disks of tron" rom is broken... it stopps at the 3rd level? got another one? regards vern "troopers helping troopers"

I have bubble lens from ebay and I think that the distortion is actually like looking through a "rear view" mirror and it actually offers you a wide angle of view. on my ESB I'm going for flat green.

RIGHT BEHIND YOU BOSS! woo hoo... ordered my handplates, helmet trim and have my lid, stickers and hovies ready for ESB STUNT. all I need is a new canvas belt and I can go ANH and ESB shooting for EIB dual mode. after that I'm going clone. out.

I just roll black socks over the tops of the CA boot. then I have white velcro all down the bottom side of them. with the 25mm finishing strip of ABS the calves are flush fit with the strip covering the gap. I mounted the velcro so that it acts like a fabric flap, extending the inside of the mounting so that the parts all fit flush. the 1/2 part of the velcro has very strong glue and the glue from the back side of the overlap leaves about 1/4" of velcro glueback sticking to the back of my boots. I'll probably have to either replace the velcro glue with another kind of sticky tape. using double sided white tape could work as well. this arrangement keeps the shins in place really well and makes them a good extention of the boot itself. vern

Looks like ATA didn't get a mould from AP, the chest is different, the back plate looks large enough to be an FX overall that kit looks like a cross between an FX and a AP? should be fun for your buildup! will be fun to troop with you soon! vern

I really like paul's attitude much better than mark's. mark has several things that make his kit's show a little less in the area of accuracy. anyone with an AP kit who is really going to want the high mark is going to need to do several things: Get new Hovi Mic pa2 tips from a better source. no Doopy Do's here... usually some stompers or an occasional keith. get new darker lens, or make bubble, or get a smitty. use a better strapping system than provided, altho the white velcro is working fine for me at the test fitting stages... but if you're going to want to move quickly you absolutely need the snap and strap with suspenders no way around that! If mark (AP) had the right attitude, then perhaps we'd see supporters with banners and such... but nowhere do I see a banner that reads: AP: possibly the best recast armor on earth? If I saw the right hovi tips on AP's list of "things to improve" I'd have it like this: new hovi darker lens flexible abs for AP the issue of hovi tip accuracy was: if there's 501st members who make more accurate tips, then he'll just continue to use water faucets. it was a cost issue and another part to cast, and mold, and assemble was just too much for his concept of price point. If TM comes out with the 3 versions of armor with all the differences intact... then he should be the LFL consultant for the new licensed armor. I'm sure that if enough 501st members started a petition to LFL then perhaps GL would consider issuing a 501st "version" of the armor as an "alternate/special" type of product. I just liked the idea that I could get a suit cast from an original, no matter what "generation" a silicone cast is... that's not much more than 1/2 a MM in difference. my eyes liked AP in 2008. perhaps my eyes and pocket would go TM if he offered a TX version in flexible armor... then I would probably go that direction!

again, another post outlining the need to show those new to this awesome hobby the details surrounding the debate of armor accuracy@! great photo source actually has been used before to show the details on the thigh parts in TKDUENO's discussion with TM's maker. I applaud both TM and AP for their contribution to the accuracy of the hobby, and this thread's potential to showcase the differences is the main purpose for this thread. I don't consider AP to be the END all... of accuracy... after all... we soon will have armor from LFL itself that might contend with our desire for accuracy. hopefully we won't see another rubies style incident with the new LFL armor that is coming out!

This post is a great example of why I put this thread here! and from the best TM armor build I've ever seen! thanks pablo for chiming in... your photos would make for a great comparison to let's say Stukatrooper's, and for someone with the AP kit trimmed out a little more. I for one... trimmed out my forearms with the return at the wrist, and at the elbow much like stuka did, mostly because I'm opting for a cross between ANH and ESB trimstyles. thanks for posting... and if you'd like to include your photos as a comparison set... I"d love to see them. PM me and I'll work up a set of photos, as fireblade requested. I'll openly ask anyone here to present their photos of their AP kit hint hint stuka? otherwise I'll include my own photos when I get the Hi Rez versions shot. again... TKDUENO has the best TM kit I've ever seen in photos!~ "troopers helping troopers"

I understand the lineage of the kits has been debated... and I agree... to a certain extent. after talking with mark directly for almost 3 hours on the phone from abroad I would have to question the ROTJ statement for the AP lineage since the kit has all the aspects that I've seen on screen in ANH. I was told directly by the owner of the AP moulds that the suit that the molds were cast from was an ESB suit. The ESB suit that mark took the moulds from was silicone cast from a disassembled ESB screen used suit. that suit sold at auction for over 20k the statement that AP was taken from a ROTJ suit might stem from opinions that Gino shared... I don't believe that AP was ROTJ cast... and then reworked. that's just not the story from AP himself. also brother, there is no need to be "sorry" because this debate probably will get some attention around here... and I'd like to see the debate carried out in this thread. there are lot's of misconceptions being shared about "how hard" it is to put together the AP kit... and I found none of the problems to need a modeling iron. let's let the photos and opinions show the story... and if it was a ROTJ rework... then he did a really great job of removing the "door trim" The lineage of the kit even if it was ROTJ is CAST from the original. mark himself stated to me that the moulds of the AP kit were taken from a screen used suit. and that according to him was an ESB suit. The arms are the only parts on the AP kit that are Identical. the legs don't fit inside each other at all... and you can clearly see that the shins, and the thighs are completely different parts... I'm sure that people around here will debate the lineage of the kits... I only know what I've been told by the maker of the armor himself. he mentioned that some of the "apparent myths" about the kit were out there... and Gino, and several other people have propagated those myths to elevate their own kits above his. not everyone likes the AP kit... not everyone likes the TM kit. I for one, as the owner of the AP kit, purchased it because of my own personal opinion about the details I've seen here on this massive site. if it were without this site...I would have had to make do with the SDS kit... and you fireblade, or possibly sskunky would have had to mail it to me from the UK. so let's all gather together and debate quietly our opinions on these two great kits... let the posting begin! vern I didn't want to steal photos from other people's posts... and I'd like to invite anyone with screen caps, photos of their armor and such to PM me for any comparison photos they may wish to add. I'll be asking around the forum for some people to present photos... and I welcome any corrections, opinions and data that might help those of us who are new to the debate here, to get a better grasp of all the subtle differences seen.

hello out there in White Armor land. I've read a lot of press around these parts about the differences between the TM kit and the AP kit. most noted differences: I must say that the thighs on the TM kit have those pinched tops, and I've even seen photo examples of the upper thigh with those suposed pinched tops on them... but if you look at the armor worn by harrison ford in ANH you can clearly see that the tops of the thighs are NOT pinched. there are way too many curves and shapes introduced into the form of the TM kit for my personal taste. it's like he took some cues from the C3po shapes and introduced all these curves into the legs and forearms that are just "not there" on the original suits. some people like those introduced curves and even think that they were on the "originals" but that's just not the case at all. The Thighs are my main reason for not opting for the TM kit. the main pro for going TM: I like the flexible armor idea that is coming down the pipe! and I sure wish that TM would do a resculpt of his thigh and shin parts. the only other element that I see on TM armor other than that would be the biceps and the knee plate being a little off... the knee plate is too tall, and the small power cells on the bottom of the left knee plate are the wrong size, the biceps on the TM and the AP kit seem to be a little shorter than actual suits. if he took off those pinched elements I'd get a TM suit in a second! Overall I'd say that the TM kit is the BEST FAN sculpt armor in existance! and if he did his thighs differently I would have it! Points to consider for going AP: I'd also like to point out that the thights, and the shins of the AP kit are not the same moulds. none of the parts in the AP kit "fit together" in the molded form EXCEPT the shoulder bells, the biceps and the forearms. The legs are very easy to fit together if you trim them out correctly! don't cut too far. Stukatrooper introduced the molded return concept, and I'd like to say that a return on those parts just cannot be seen by the average viewer, and I'd also like to point out... that while cool looking on one point, there is the understanding that ANH armor does not have a return on the forearms or any other parts, and actually is more like an ESB trimout. You Don't need a modeling iron on ANY part of the ANH version of trimout for AP armor. When AP armor is glued together, you need to put a little torque on some of the parts for about 4-5mm in difference, but then that introduced the screen accurate curves in the finishing strips that can be seen when examining the look of the forearms. ESB armors pulled from the ANH molds and trimmed out for ESB have a larger return on the forearms, and can be seen clearly when chewbacca is being cuffed. The finishing strip trimming and the cutouts for the thighs vary quite a bit on the original armors. you can see the backs of some thighs cross over and form a squared off corner on the upper parts of the rear of the thigh at the overlap. and on the front of the thigh you can see several different trimming styles used, some are not lined up correctly and show differences in height, and shape. some of the trimming strips are 45d angle cut at the top corners, and go fully to the top and some are squared off, and a little shorter... showing the seam at the top... These differences in trimming seem to have led people to see curves, and pinches... in the shadows of the photos. the main reason I purchased the AP kit was it's incredible accuracy! The only slight flaw that I see is that the biceps are not as long on the sides, and the "thumb print" is not ridged like the original thumb prints were. on han's armor, for example... you can clearly see the ridged area inside the thumb print, and the small hook that TKDUENO pointed out... I put up this post because there are a lot of people who don't own the AP kit, and are wondering how the kit fits together. I'd never go ata, or laws, or any fan sculpt when such an accurate form. you don't need a modeling iron to "correct" miss fitting parts. it's all in how you trim it in the first place. if you leave 2-3 mm extra and do a lot of test fitting, you can make all the parts fit, without any trouble at all. When parts are cooling off the mould there is a very slight difference in them as they cool. some parts twist as they cool, and some parts sag... on my AP kit I found that all the parts fit together within Millimeters of each other, and any of the parts that some people have trouble with only require a little torque to line up! I'll add photos, and screenshots to this post and eventually try to show the differences in detail. if anyone would like to help clairify the differences between these two Awesome kits... I'd sure like to see the help. if anyone thinks I'm Bashing here... go back and read the post again! this is about accuracy, and ease of use. The AP kit is best, the TM kit is right behind! regards, vern

I must say that AP is the BEST if you want armor that was not FAN sculpted. ATA is NOT somthing I'd suggest if you want the best! TM and T*E are a very close 2nd in my opinion. I OWN the AP kit for a reason! the chestplate, backplate, forearms and legs are the best! The LEGS on the AP kit are not the same! vern

score it with a box cutter, then snap it with a pair of pliers. sometimes you have to cut twice with the box cutter.. then it snaps like a perfect cut line. sometimes you have to start the snap by cutting a small start cut. but then it just folds back and forth a few times with the pliers and even the curved parts just snap off. sand round with come 60 grit and you're done. no dremel. just a box cutter a pair of pliers and some 60 grit. done.