ObiHahn

Congrats, Tom! And welcome to the ranks. One last thing: There were screen-used troopers with one or two male snaps in the butt plate, but never with 2 female snaps on the corresponding elastic (according to my reference, that is). So all you had to do was add an additional snap on the butt plate, NOT the elastic. The one on the elastic is supposed to be snapped into one of the two male snaps on that butt armour, counter-intuitive as that might be. Oh well.

Just chiming in real quick since I built this suit. The knee is installed in a perfectly screen accurate way. Checking my references, these are just two of many ANH screen-seen TKs with knee placement way more off than what I replicated on Tom's suit: That's how screen accurate knee parts tend to sit if you line them up to be straight looking head-on at the shins. For a program like Centurion, shouldn't screen TKs be the be-all-end-all reference? Just something for y'all to think about. Not intent on starting yet another "FISD and screen accuracy" discussion here, but denying Centurion status because of a slightly crooked knee that clearly has lineage to what we see in the movie? Yeah, after endless discussions about allowing FX for Centurion, this kinda sits wrong with me and the "let's do things like they were on the actual movie costumes" crowd... No doubt about the rivets though, those should be replaced. Tom will do that as soon as he sourced the correct kind/size split rivets. Not the easiest of tasks here in Germany.

They look awesome painted, Paul. Now wear them so it all rubs and chips off again!

Congratulations, Thomas. I see you are still wearing it very well! About the shoulders: Tom is a very tall guy with very broad, "heroic" shoulders. There's 2 options for strapping them. The 1st is how he wears them now, with a little give in the black strap on the bells so the snaps will not come off and the white elastic under the shoulders will never be pulled out, it remains invisible. The 2nd option would be to shorten the black straps, but risk the snaps coming loose once in a while, as well as occasionaly pulling out the white shoulder elastic. The shoulders on a couple movie troopers were like Tom wears them here - that should always be the reference.

I approve of this information. About time, though.

Little piece of information: Rob and Si of RS Props are staying over at my place in Germany this weekend for the MovieDays convention in Dortmund, they'll be back in the UK on monday. Prices are on their website, but I'm sure you already found that out. And waiting for a reply for over one day is more than usual in this hobby. Patience, young padawans! So what's it gonna be then, Paul: PVC or ABS?

It all boils down to if you want hyper-accurate and original materials to go with the original molds or if you prefer slightly idealized material and a bit more flex and high gloss for trooping. Ultimately, it's entirely your call. But it always helps to see things in context of lineage and screen accuracy.

Not to derail this thread completely, but it has been established in the TK prop nut community for quite some time now that the "painted vs. unpainted suits" theory stemmed from the fact that Simon's suit has been painted after production wrapped. Painted stormtroopers have since been debunked, even by Brian Muir himself I believe - have to check that again though. J.W. Rinzler's making of book does not mention painting the suits either. It's a one time thing on Si's suit and was misinterpreted by a whole lot of people. According to the logic of painting what was white plastic to begin with white (time-consuming and not cost-effective), all surviving ABS hero helmets accounted for these days should also be painted to match the painted suits, and not one of those shows even the slightest hint of paint. Also, if they did paint the suits white, why would they use another shade of white that so clearly contrasts the painted stunt HDPE helmets? No armor suit was ever painted white, other than maybe after filming ended. Both of your 2007 LFL archive pics taken by Matt Gauthier for the Ainsworth court case show unpainted ABS suits. The sheen of the ABS is very obvious in both of those archive pics. Check the upper left (looking at the pic) torso split rivet for the white paint smeared around the rivet head, and over the otherwise unpainted surrounding ABS, it's clearly just painted rivets in unpainted plastic, with a visible difference in the 2 shades of white. The shin shows what I believe is residue either from being re-glued the wrong way around, or just residue of tape to quickly close the shins (maybe for ESB). The shade of residue is too yellow and it's raised vs recessed, chipped off paint. Also, paint never chips in such straight, controlled lines like we see on those pics.

Oh, and here's a couple pictures taken that glorious day. Because no, I did not make that up. I made a trip to visit RS Prop Masters last year with my best TK bro R2Dan, and the guys were giving us the opportunity to finally fulfill a lifelong dream. Such great guys, the both of them. Matter of fact, Rob&Si are coming over to pay us a visit in Germany this coming weekend and to attend MovieDays in Dortmund. The detonator in question: Me checking out the original armour: Me wearing the helmet, front torso and arm parts. R2Dan even got to wear the whole shebang because he actually fit into what was built for rather short and slim stunt guys/extras back in the day. Oh, and also, we met Brian Muir - what a great guy.

Simon's suit has been painted by him when he was a kid, not by the art department back in 1976. No ABS suit or hero helmet seen on screen has been painted, only the HDPE helmets for obvious reasons. When I had the honor to visit Rob&Si to see (and even partially wear) the original suit I removed an endcap from the original detonator, which Simon kindly allowed me to do, so we could find a spot that has hardly discolored since it never got dusty or exposed to direct sunlight. Comparing that to their ABS material showed that it was as close a match as you could hope for over 30 years later.

Keep in mind that you will get the exact same shape of armour. Pulled from the same moulds made from an original ANH armour. PVC is pure white and high gloss, that's what makes it a bit more idealized and "prettier" to the public eye. It's the only "sanitized" detail about the PVS suit, if you will. ABS is more for accuracy purists since the shade of slightly off white, more satin ABS the RS guys use is a perfect match of the original ABS used for the prop/costume back then. I know, I checked in person. Also, PVC is more flexible and thus the better choice for trooping on a regular basis. This pic might help. 2 RS kits, PVC on the left, ABS on the right. Normal room lamp, the difference is most noticeable with flash photography, but not so much in direct sunlight. Sunlight really brings out the gloss of the PVC, though.

Excellent idea: put the spotlight on this matter. By the way, I gladly offer my help for all small things and nuances of screen accurate ANH TKs for any possible future "hardcore" artisan programs. I can make lists in English and German.

Hm, that's difficult. I'd say all armor that, when you overlay the single components (like thigh/calf halves, arm halves, shoulders, chest etc.), say in different Photoshop layers, and the form and outlines match up to a high degree to screen used/derived components, it should be eligible for Centurion. In my mind, that includes all directly 1st gen cast armor and helmets, all TE clones (I'm calling them that to simplify, not to stir up another recasting debate) and all fan sculpts that are so well observed and implemented that they basically resemble screen derived armor. While this is talking subtleties no doubt, so is pointing out types of rivest used or placing of snaps and such, and well...has been massively overlooked so far when it should be the most important factor in aiming for a screen accurate look. A TM without rivets, snaps and the whole shebang will always look more like a trooper from the movie (I'm talking silhouette, character or "mojo" here) than a set of FX/AM armor all decked out in what our current Centurion CRLs demand, I think we might all agree on that.

I'd say: if it has all the subtle characteristics of screen used suit (like I said: curvatures, details, proportions), we should consider it equally accurate. My personal experience: laying TM and RS armor pieces next to each other/stacking them into each other shows that they are only different by sooo sooo few millimeters, it would not be a wise move to exclude Paul's work from such a program. It's what bothers me about less accurate fan sculpts: they're not well observed and replicated. TM surely is, in nuances that sometimes frighten me.

That about sums it up, Damian. Would be a way to go in the future.

Well spoken, Brian. And I do find it a very cool idea knowing that you were serious. Darn non-native speaker problems I sometimes have, not being able to decide if some subtleties were lost on me or just flat out do not exist. Sorry for that. A third-tier program is something that might actually be put up for vote as well then? If this triggers a new discussion about that, I for one would certainly welcome that. And not feel that I just wasted all of your guy's time. Oh, BTW, the percentage was only a quite random guesstimate. Just an attempt to put a number on a gut feeling about where I personally consider Centurion accuracy (vs. screen/prop accuracy) now, and then adding the proposed amendments Mathias and me (plus some others) added in that thread, amounting to that rough figure. Here's one lone tear though for the knowledge of that seemingly intentional low-tier status that Legion applies to the TKs, compared to other detachments...I did have my share of discussions about that in my GML time. Looking at SLD and FlagshipEclipse, the grass is always greener on the other side. See, that's were the wish evolved that if we accuracy nuts can't have what other detachments have for basic acceptance, we could at least redefine the artisan programs to be a bit more "you've either hit the mark or you haven't". Looking forward to that vote then. Well, emergency elections first, of course.

I see you just added that intro, Brian. Where was I so extremely inflammatory in my statements that people now have blood rushing through their ears? Man, I seem to have powers I never knew of before... I guess I also digress, though. That part is not entirely correct. Only a handful of people might be able to achieve what has been called "prop forgery" in other places before, sure. Not everyone has access to original armor to take measurements and check internal fittings, so granted - that's a small group of people. That's why there's not much sense in proposing a third program - for that, there are things like LSD. I am not entirely sure if you are serious about proposing a third artisan level, or if it's just a supposedly polite way of saying "what you propose for Centurion is way over the top so I make up some really high-nosed sounding stuff to call you out" - only to deflect what some feel are much-needed amendments to Centurion and to shape it into what most felt it was meant to portray when it was first presented here on these boards. And that is not sarcasm, it's an honest question. Since we all can agree that FISD should remain a place where all parties, majority and minority, should feel at home, I am glad we are having this whole discussion - I really am. With Centurion for FX/AM, some few will not see FISD as a place to be, I can assure you that. Always a problem for minorities, so it all boils down to the fact that only a vote will show what FISD really wants.

Admission time: I did not do my homework properly. I have actually not bothered really checking how many FX/AM Centurion applications there have already been. My bad. Looks like there have indeed been a few before Neil, who I still hope I have not harrassed too much by making him my "example". A third artisan program, in the somewhat extreme and uber-elitist way you, Brian, describe it (not that that's a bad thing... ), could be a nice addition - in theory. While I am the last to vote against such a program were it actually proposed in the near future, because the concept of course appeals to the group you basically summarize as "the LSD guys", it's not really what I was getting at here the whole time: I simply stated repeatedly now that I see no sense in adding snaps and rivets to something so quite far removed from screen lineage - and why add a third, uber-extreme program here when a couple simple but strict amendments could make Centurion something that still appeals to all troopers who see faults in FX/AM, but do not care much for internals, boot brands, visible snap brand names or the like. And in addition will, in my mind at least, "appease" all those prop replication freaks to the point where I am sure most of them would admit that an artisan program that is in between 75-85% the way to screen accurate overall presentation is way easier to (let's just call it that) live with and respect. "High-tier programs and easy/cheap achievability for everyone thereof" is an oxymoron to begin with, so I still can not really grasp why the Legion or Detachment wants basically the same "all-in" approach for their artisan programs - it's not that it takes the fun out of stormtrooping for everyone because that crazy guy in the corner counting and measuring rivets feels that "his" program is going in a new, more serious direction. Ask the Vader freaks, they will sing you their song of levels of admission for even base 501st membership being way higher than, say, oir EIB or where Centurion stands now. And it's still mostly a community of brothers since they all accepted that the investment of time, labour and money are what make some people smile when they hold their end results in their sweaty hands.

I really do not want a public vote that aims at excluding the (exemplary) small Vaders, female officers or bigger TKs (or huge Jawas), that's still a massive misunderstanding. The voting I want has already been set into motion by Mathias/Locitus, which is a good thing and much needed IMHO - to strictly exclude FX/AM and all their recasts from being eligible for Centurion status. I don't see why that would be controversial or mean, EIB would still be possible for FX/AM and we might even have two artisan programs that really reflect different levels of accuracy (or emulation thereof). TE derived armor ist small, yes - very small by now due to massive recasting and shrinkage of moulds and all that. But then there are TM and RS who allow slightly bigger troopers (like me) to still fit snugly into very screen accurate suits. For anyone even bigger, there is still the RT-Mod as mentioned before, and anyone even larger than that might maybe have to live with Centurion not being possible until even larger armor following screen accurate proportions/curves is offered (like improved AM in some possible future like Brian suggested). Watering down artisan programs just because one person or the other might take offense is not a step forward, I stand by that. The first FX/AM Centurion applicant is not really a big guy, btw. There are no easily modifiable details to call out on FX/AM without completely resculpting all moulds, so... I already tried, next to just dropping maker names, to describe how clunky and not sleek enough those two loose stormtrooper interpretations are and therefore can't portray a screen accurate trooper - not on bigger troopers, and not on smaller troopers. It's not the wearer that I have my focus on, it's the totally inaccurate sculpts those suits have as they stand right now, unmodified and sculpted as is. The "bigger trooper" debate just came into play because people feel personally attacked like they always do when something they own/wear/build is being critizised.

Brian, I do see your point. It is near impossible to try and exclude non-accurate armor types for any Legion-based program and by doing so to not also imply or flat out say that this means excluding certain body types. I know most Legion rules and see why we would need all of them: exclusion based on any of those factors (race, gender, age, body type) is and should always be a no-go, and since that applies for basic membership, it's only logical that it applies to all artisan levels too. So I know that I am moving on a very thin line trying to point out why certain armor types (by chance all appealing to mostly larger troopers) are on my "black list" here, while I still do not propagate to exclude the body types wearing said armors. There is always RT-Mod. I am trying to just say: look at the FX. Look at the AM. Look at any on-screen trooper. See all the glaring differences in proportions, curvatures, basically "character" of the sculpt(s)? Then tell me how much sense any artisan program makes for a detachment if those characteristic, defining details are ignored.

Oh, before I forget it: of course AM (being FX's official successor) could pull a TM in the years to come and modify the sculpts to resemble the stormtroopers seen on screen. If that happens, there is no way AM armor should be excluded from being eligible for Centurion level. I honestly hope that that happens though, only time might prove me wrong though. As it stands, both FX, AM plus all their recasted derivatives do not hold up to what should be considered accurate enough (it's all about proportions/curvatures/silhouette) for the highest level of costuming achievement awarded by our detachment.

That same saying applies in Germany and the whole of Europe as well. I feel though that by saying things that are true but by their nature also very blunt and direct, it also brings out the parties who are obviously only very easily offended on a personal level while ignoring what was actually said in the first place. These are, according to my personal experience, mostly the same people who think that "close enough" costuming and basic low tier CRL demands are the thing to go by, if possible for all eternity. If by just casually stating cold hard facts people are personally offended and then get defensive and spiteful... well, what else can be said other than that this is an outcome (at least) as offensive as stating simple facts in the first place. And certainly not constructive for the community either. Wrapping each and every critical word into a fluffy and happy cocoon is not what brings change - it's controversial statements (or "supposedly controversial" matters) that move things forward. And to summarize once more: all I am saying here and now is that for the most elitist of elite programs FISD has to offer (Centurion, not even EIB and most certainly not basic 501st membership), watering down the application demands to allow inaccurate base armor is a hard slap in the face for those few really working hard to make their costume the best they possibly can. There sure as heck is a place for very cool optimized and customized FX and AM armor (and I respect every single person's decision to buy/build/wear anything they want or can afford), but that place is not and should never be Centurion level. I see we're on the same boat then, Brian. That's why I'm happy to see that there will be a voting.

On a side note, more a technical observation: I am following this topic, yet it does not show up in the list of topics followed... how come? I would not like to miss any responses, guys. Right now I just bookmarked this.

I did not say FISD and the community are actively taking a step back, I am saying that I see a tendency to do so - and that we all should avoid it. There's a difference. I find that honesty, however brutal or open to all kinds of emotional reactions (childish spite, denial, all are fine) does what it does best: it puts a spotlight on matters that, without a "heated" or let's say passionate debate, would remain untouched and unchanged. Say a couple honest words and at least you can expect a reaction. When I put FX and AM in the same camp, I am saying: both are equally inaccurate and not very well observed interpretations of the stormtrooper character. RT Mod had a much better approach to emulating movie stormtroopers for bigger/taller troopers, and I stand by my statement that FX should not be included in serious programs encouraging screen accuracy. I can see that a lot of owners of FX/AM automatically assume that I am flat out just saying their personal choices suck (thereby personally attacking them), but that's neither intended, true nor the actual core of the whole matter at hand. I hope we can agree that "FX/AM" and "screen accuracy" just do not go hand in hand and never will?

Considering how in the last few years, standards in available armor and reference pictures have risen (it's quite easy to be accurate these days) I find it only logical for Legion Command to finally make the signature character costume of our 501st shine as best as it possibly could. It's been a hard labour for all parties involved to raise the bar and this is the main reason for me to bring this all up: let's not go one step forward, two steps back on this one. While I always had the feeling that CRLs were left intentionally "low tier" to go for quantity rather than quality, I too see that this agenda has slightly changed for the better. Let's at least keep that spirit and maybe try and inspire more people to really go screen accurate - which unfortunately is not possible with idealized/simplified base armor kits. I had my fair amount of arguments in my Garrison while I was GML because I was always aiming for all applicants to be willing to update and improve their costumes above minimum membership requrements, and was called "elitist", "arrogant" and "snobby" by some who just wanted to go the quick and easy path... Join the Legion with a simple costume, enjoy all Legion privileges indefinitely, be grandfathered ASAP and never bother with striving for accuracy ever again: this is a mindset that I never had much respect for. For me personally, it's an oxymoron to say "I decide to buy FX/AM but then want to be really screen accurate". And while I understand that bigger troopers might take offense, I have to be brutally honest and just say that no bigger troopers ever showed up in the movies for a reason. Like there never were small Vaders or female officers, it's just a simple fact looking at the source material. No FX/AM Centurion (EIB: make that a program where FX/AM troopers can add rivets/snaps/screws and "accuratize" their suits.)!