Star Wars Helmets

I've updated StarWarsHelmets.com to include a new page on this with more info Star Wars Helmets.com - Were RotJ-style Stormtroopers used in ESB? As we learn more about this I'll update as necessary. Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Cheers Jez

I think this is the one with the patch on its rear? Still like to see lots of hi-res photos though.... Cheers Jez

As a side issue I just checked an inflation calculator and the sheets of ABS cost £16.50 each in 1979 which equates to £68 ($105) in todays money. Now assuming ABS has increased in price at roughly the same rate as inflation, in which case that suggests to me that they were pretty big sheets. How big a sheet of ABS would $100 buy now? Note that John Mollo said to me that the vac presses at Elstree were typically used for sets so I think they would have been fairly large. Cheers Jez

My pleasure Paul - the most important thing is that we find the truth so we can accurately document it David - excellent information thank you. I'm glad you had a chance to do that as it was something I was going to try and do. The bumpy internal texture does suggest Haircell ABS and this is something I had discussed with Brandon and Art Andrews so Its pleasing that all these strands are coming together. Ive not yet managed to get a shooting script but from other sources Ive found that the majority of the Stormtrooper work was done PRE June 1979 (ie before these "Mark 2" Stormtroopers were worked on). However I believe they only needed 6 at a time and I wonder if the shots when they required 10 were done in late June - i.e. they could have produced additional armour/helmts or whatever in time for the Carbon Freeze scene (late June and into July I think) and the only shot I could see where 10 were required when all the Stormtroopers pour out of a door in a Bespin firefight (I think when the Falcons pulling away). I'm ot sure whether you read my post but the bit I'm trying to get my head round is the relatively small amount of time/effort/materials they ordered (according to Mollo's notes). However maybe they worked quickly and the 3.5 sheets were large size ones Cheers Jez

Long post – Lots to read! Right, I managed to spend a few hours with John Mollo this afternoon to try and resolve the question over what Stormtrooper helmets and armor were used in ESB. We spent a considerable amount of time looking at whether new Stormtroopers were made for The Empire Strikes Back but were not able to get a clear decision either way. HOWEVER there is evidence that there WAS “new” work done on the Stormtroopers and therefore I’d like to congratulate Paul/Trooper Master for pushing so hard on this issue since he has clearly opened up a very interesting can or worms. Paul – take this as a metaphorical pat on the back – well done! As many of you may already know, John Mollo has proved to be a very reliable source of information for the movies he worked on since he kept chronological “sketch book’s” / diaries detailing all the work he did including names, dates, art work, “to-do’s” and design workings for his costume work. Now to gain a thorough understanding of events (and to tie them into John’s dates) it would be incredibly useful to see a copy of the production diary/Shooting schedule for ESB – does anyone here have access to that? The ANH dates were published a few years back but I’m not sure about ESB (maybe we’ll get it when the new “making of” book is released?). Either way if someone’s got a copy and can mail it to me it would be incredibly useful. Like I said we spent a lot of time going through the notes, with Mollo trying to add whatever else he could remember, “filling in the gaps”. What we got was that a maximum of 10 Stormtroopers were required for ESB and these were put together using ANH left overs. However Gary Kurtz was not happy with their condition so work was requested creating a “Mark 2” version – and this included amendments to the existing helmets and armor – and importantly plasterers making a cast “off an existing model”. Changes included the following: Helmet New liners, chin straps, trim and decals It looks like they would have had “New Vac formed green eyes” although we know that for filming they used green acrylic on most (if not all) Body Most of the changes were to assist the wearers, such as “Elastic for the Shoulder pads”, “glue shoulders to arms”, “rivet and bolt shoulder plates” - although interestingly also includes “Edged (armor) body with white plastic” – something more commonplace on RotJ armor. Okay, so back to the vac-forming. What is not clear is what specifically was done (helmet, armor or both). However, we do know that the Plasterers (who make the moulds) were budgeted for 7 hours work, with the Vac-formers another 12 hours (including forming and trimming) In addition we have an idea of how much ABS they needed (just 3.5 sheets, but the size of the sheets is not known). So we do have some information on what happened, but probably more questions than answers; did they just vac-form missing/damaged pieces or a complete suit? How many helmets or suits could you vac-form and trim in 12 hours? So that’s the end of the info for now, although like I said I’d really like to see some shooting dates if anyone has them. John’s kindly agreed to check some other sources and I too will look down some other avenues. Hope this helps Cheers Jez

Good spot on those similarities Veedox - having them pointed out to me does suggest that both photographs were taken on the same day. I also dont think that Getty images would have got the date wrong - that kind of stuff is their livelihood so it does suggest 1980 and a very difficult question that I cant currently find an answer to To me the red-backing promo photo is just one of the ANH/Holiday Special Hero's but can understand why others don't agree. I think I know who has the answer (part of the production team) but it's not the easiest to get the information from him. Can I also say that I'm really enjoying this thread! Cheers Jez

Well I'd like to think that I could also spot the dfference between an ANH/ESB and a RotJ too I also dont think there were 2 different "types" of helmets with regard to their production. I think there was ONE RotJ mould and they were all vac-formed off that. The difference is in the assembly and detailing (which is always the case). I think its possible that the vac-forms were assembled in 2 places (US and UK) and maybe even some vac-forming was done at different times - eg MAYBE they produced the new mould in 1981 for tour work and then used it fr the manufacvture of the new helmets in 1982. Maybe. I'm wary of the term "Hero" for RotJ helmets as I dont thik there were Hero's. I think the vast majority of the helmets were the round forwn versions, and within that group theyre all the same. I dont believe the made any to be specifically "Close up" or "Hero" versions. However to be clear on these photos, IMO... This was from 1980 but theyre ANH/ESB Helmets. It was a publicity photo to promote the ESB exhibition (Selfridges ?) This was from 1983 and are RotJ helmets. It was a publicity photo to promote the ESB exhibition (Harrods?). I went to both exhibitions. Cheers Jez

Thanks for the kind comments guys - much appreciated. Paul - let me tell you that if you are proven to be right about this I'll be very happy to give you a great big (metaphorical) pat on the back mate. I certainly think you have opened up a very interesting debate, however from my personal point of view I just don't see RotJ-style trooper helmets in ESB and think the b/w Vader and trooper pic with the London Bus was taken 1983. But its just my opinion. Like I said before though I dont really have an opinion on the armor. However I'd love to be proven wrong on the helmet front as it would show that something went on that we previously werent aware of and that the sort of thing that makes this hobby fun. For those who think the square frown troopers look different from the round nosed, I've put this together which shows that (to some extent) they ALL can look different depending on assembly and the way they are photographed. The centre three are square-frowns, whereas all the others are round frowns Cheers Jez

The pics loading fine for me - so should be okay. To go back to the original post question "How many RotJ Stormtrooper Helmet types are there", I've been looking into this and would personally say there are TWO. However I think both helmet types look structurally the same, with the key differences being detailing. Now to be clear I've never had the two versions side by side to do a thorough comparison although it is something I'm going to try and set up. Ive heard it said that 2 different stocks of ABS were used in different colours but have not seen this myself. The yellowing of certain helmets is more pronounced than others but what we dont know is how those helmets have been exposed to light and thus have yellowed more (or less). Certainly even the most yellowed helmets Ive seen have been almost white in obscured places like under the brow trim so UV yellowing has certainly played a part. Like I said I'd like the get the 2 versions side by side as still have a sneaking suspicion that the internal textures may be slightly different. The most common are the Rounded Frown versions. Now having handled over half a dozen of these I can say that they all have the same RotJ Decals, Aluminium Mic Tips and construction Hard Hat liners. You can see these right through the movie from the Elstree Sets to the California Forest scenes. The second type are the Squared Frown versions, and have been finished differently. These have ESB decals, Resin Hovi Mix mic tips and foam lining. There are certainly less of these although I have personally handled two over recent years. Interestingly, all three I know of were sourced from the UK I'm working on my RotJ section at the moment and have shots from an new photoshoot I want to add soon (waiting for owners permission). 'm also going to do another video, this one detailing the RotJ helmet and how it varies from the ANH/ESB version - using some new footage taken last week - here's a screengrab Cheers Jez

Best ignore ----- as I've now moved Star Wars Helmets onto a new server and completely reorganised The Stormtrooper Reference area starts at ----- ...with the various sub sections dealing with original, and replica - for the different versions Cheers Jez

I'm wondering if that could be one of the two Hero's that survived ANH (and unfortunately the Holiday Special) - they either purposely switched the lenses to match the others or they fell out (as happened to the one remaining Hero in the LFL archive) Cheers Jez

I've spent the day with a number of original helmets, including an ANH and RotJ Stormtrooper - and have looked at this again. However IMO (and it really is only an opinion) - but what we're seeing is just the same reconditioned ANH helmets. We know for a fact that 2 Hero's survived ANH (for the Holiday SPecial) so its possible that one lost its lenses so could be viewed a Stunt/Hero hybrid - i.e. an ABS "stunt" style helmet IF they replaced the lenses (again remember the one currently in the archive has no lenses - not sosafe-keeping from Lucasfilm I'm sad to say). But when I look at these two - I see ANH helmets, not RotJ As far as the one on the right- see more ANH bump under its eye than RotJ... ...and IMO this photo was taken 1983 for the RotJ Star Wars exibition (I forget whether it was Harrods or Selfridges but I went to both the ESB and RotJ exibitions) The troopers in the Getty photo are not the same as this. The Getty one was 1980, this is 1983 and the troopers are different. I'm certainly not closing my mind off to the possibility, but at the moment I just dont see it. But like I said, just an opinion Mods1965 - Yes I was there although (stupidly) did not take a camera so thanks for posting your pic. I remember it well since they had the (at that point) unseen trailer for RotJ on continual loop - I must have watched it 30 times! I remember the Biker/Speeder and the IRG's I forget whether it was at Selfridges or Harrods and seem to remember one of the exibitions (ESB and RotJ) being at one store and the other at the other. But being a Star Wars nut all those years ago I went to both. Cheers Jez

good idea asking the Vader experts - i was thinking the exact thing myself..... Cheers Jez

Armor-wise, like I said before I dunno. TBH I dont really have an opinion on that. I think its more believable than the helmet. Although like I said a huge amount of effort for only a couple os sets but maybe thats what they needed to do Also like I said before, that red-backed colour photo does seem to show a RotJ style helmet. But have we categorically got a date for it - are we sure its 1980 and not 1983? I'm ging to see if I can track down a better copy of that 1980 Getty photo. Maybe you guys eyes are better than mine but its just too hazy for me. Let me see what I can dig up..... Cheers Jez

I'm sure that Getty shot is 1980 - its the 2nd one that I think was 1983. However in that 1980 shot they just look like ANH/ESB troopers to me. Any chance we can get a better resolution copy? I'm out for the evening now but will check back tomorrow - like I said, very interesting discussion Cheers Jez

Do you mean the one in your screen-grab at the top or the photo above with Vader? If the one above then I can see why you think it looks RotJ as it does look odd - although like I said the grey frown also suggests ANH. DO we know when that photo was first used - could be from 1982 or was it definitely 1980? TBH I dunno. Everything I've encountered thus far suggests that they DIDN'T make any more trooper stuff and just reused what the had (hence the ridiculously small number of Stormtroopers in ESB) and most of the reasons for this were due to the strict budget in place. If they had gone to the expense of casting an entire stormtooper then why stop at just one - why not make another dozen as they were always short on numbers? I also have it on good authority that they paid a 3rd party to "recondition" the ANH stormtrooper helmets instead of making new ones - again to keep costs down. But couldn't this just be a change in strapping/assembly. Mollo's team were great at doing this- the problem with the movie was there wasn't great vac-forming abilities which is why the ended up re-using everything they had (stormtrooprs, TIE's became AT-AT's etc.) Only the Snowtroopers were "new" and the vac-forming there was extremely elementary compared to the ANH stuff. Yes it is absolutely is possible. Though I'd be more inclined to believe the armour than the helmets (which I don't think happened). ANH and ESB stuff appeared in RotJ - no problem. The issue would be for "RotJ" stuff to be in ANH or ESB. Interesting thread! Cheers Jez

Hi Paul The top one looks like standard ANH/ESB helmets. Its hard to tell given the resolution The 2nd one down (with the Bus) was taken outside Selfridges on Oxford Street. That was where there was an exibition to tie into Return of the Jedi in March-April 1983. I went along to it and remember it was the first time the new trailer was on show. The 3rd photo (colour). I remember we discussed this on the RPF some time ago and I thought the consensus of opinion was that it was an ANH Hero (hence the grey frown) . In fact it could be the same Hero thats still in the LFL Archive. I wonder if it was just an odd angle? Cheers Jez

Thats a very interesting theory Paul over the ESB helmets and Armor. Concentrating on the helmet side, I have to say that having spent the last half hour looking over that scene in hi-def I'm still not convinced that the helmet youre referring to is a "RotJ". However it does have a softer look to it and admittedly its hard to see screw holes - although these could be put down to a soft pull with replacement ears that could be new. Is there any other evidence that there were RotJ-style troopers in ESB? I think I recall a shot of Vader and 2 troopers outside Harrods but throught that was 1983, not 1980. I actually went to the Premiere of ESB in 1980 and recall a few troopers turning up (with Chewy, 3PO and Vader) but have not seen any photos of this since so dont know what they were. Like I said, interesting but I think we need more evidence Cheers Jez

No the Disney one is more accurate. And its only about 2 inches tall Cheers Jez

Agreed with everyone else - avoid Rubies! You need to go here.... Star Wars Helmets - Stormtrooper Armor ...and concentrate on the "Fan-made" sub-pages. My personal favourites for full armor are TE2, DL, AP, GF, TM Cheers Jez

Great discussion guys. I have to say that I'm a "bump" kind of guy myself but agree with others that sometimes its over exaggerated. However I remember when MR first showed me their prototype HERO Stormtrooper Helmet and I told them straight away "thats got to go" As other have said its mostly a trimming issue so varied from helmets to helmets, although the angle the shots taken from affects it significantly... ---------- So IMHO it should be some bump - but just not too much!!! Cheers Jez

I agree, even though the old helmet had those "goggle-eyes", I still think they look better than the new ones. -------------- Cheers Jez

Yes I know he said that but TBH I dont think he's correct mate. We've never seen anything to suggest there were 2 different types of trooper armor and the photos posted just looked like an unfinised set of Ainsworths. Having spoken to a number of people it sounds like Elstree were incapable of doing anything as complex as the helmets and armor at that stage which is why they outsourced it all. Thanks for the coments on the site guys - Ive had a lot of help from Art Andrews but there's still a mountain left to do. The Stormtrooper section has bee completely overhauled ad I realy need to do the same on the Vader, then Boba etc etc. Cheers Jez

Just to add a little more to Paul's comments. Having looked into this at length it seems that Elstree were just not cut out to do any vac-forming for the movie which is why everrything was outsourced to (a non unionised SDS). This started with the helmets and then moved onto the Armor. Ive never seen any evidence that Elstree did any vac forming of costumes/helmets and I'm pretty certain that the armour showin the in the video grabs Brian Muir showed were just standard Ainsworth armor - hence I think SDS did 100% of the armor. I think Ainsworths "contribution" to th stormtrooper was (as you said) a refinement of the clay sculpt that better suited the vac-forming process, and as such we can probably put the ears and brow trim down to him. As far as the armor's concerned, like you said he probably made some parts that refined the sandtrooper into the stormtrooper. I think his input on other helmets was greater. He claims that it was his idea that a black trooper faceplate was added for the TIE Pilot. Ive not seen any pre-produciton drawings of that design ( although there are some storyboards although the date is unclear), hence this cant be verified either way. I think the quick win he gave John Mollo and the Art Department in resolving the Stormtrooper production problem probably gave him a more free reign over some of the other helmets/costumes he was involved in - although of course most were based on existing real world designs (like the XWing and TIE) although there was some skill in the way he made the finished designs work. Over recent weeks weve been updateing StarWarsHelmets.com and the new version went live yesterday on a new server. All the Stormtrooper info is now in one place so its more easy to find. However given the volume of information its split across a LOT of pages as it deals with Original, Licensed and fan-made replicas - and all the different movie/version connatations. http://www.starwarshelmets.com/Characters.htm Hope this helps Cheers Jez

I'd like to think that there is a database of armour already available, on my site. However it could be a bit out of date so if there's anything missing then let me know (although the TE2 most certainly is there). The only stuff thats not there is the "out-and-out no questions asked" recasts. In other words were not talking about stuff that exists in the "grey area" of what different people view as a recast, but those helmets and armour that have clearly been cast from another without any rights/legitimacy or whatever you want to call it. For the record Lucasfilm are very cool with my site and have never asked me to remove anything - despite certainly having the opportunity. So I dont think a forum like this would have a problem. Lucasfilm are quite supportive of the "fan-made" producers just so long as they don't cross "the line". And we all know what happens when you cross the line Cheers Jez