sskunky
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Posts posted by sskunky
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My responses and examples were only in response to your claims not mine, that's what I meant. But anyway let's move on. It's not really important.
I think this just about sums it up and is what I find so frustrating.
I've never understood why something that looks so original is a problem for a costume club if it's foundations are based on the very characters we are emulating.Again, too screen accurate is a problem for 501st Legion membership in some instances. We are working - as I said above, and above that, and above that - to clarify that for the GMLs because that appears to be where the overwhelming bulk of the problem lies for your customers.
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I've never used examples to support my claims. I was responding to the comments put up in this thread to support your claims. I started this thread because I was getting customers having a hard time getting approval because their costumes are too screen accurate.
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Thanks Daetrin.
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I thought we were talking about Star Wars here and not the real world army? Just because members were in the forces shouldn't mean that the rules of the real world army apply in the Star Wars universe.
I think we are diverting here and making excuses for mistakes made in the CRL.
Also props of Star Wars were based on WWII and other historic costumes and weapons not modern day uniformity.
In historic warfare soldiers pretty much used and wore what they could and many variations appeared. There were certainly similarities in their uniforms but not identical by any means.
Just my 2c worth.
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Thanks Daetrin
I feel like I'm finally getting heard without just been seen as a trouble maker.
I cannot stress enough how passionate I am about my costumes and whilst not being a 501st member, I am proud to have my costumes represented within the 501st. I have spent the last 7 years creating what I consider very accurate to what's seen on screen costumes. I have made many changes and improvements over the years and never afraid to accept that I get it wrong sometimes but always willing to update and change things that were not correct. That's all I've asked of the 501st.
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Hi Deatrin
I'd like the CRL higher levels to reflect the original construction as well. I dont see why it's ok to have rivets for basic clearance then if people want to have higher clearance they have to lose them? That means I have to keep replacing trooper shoulder straps at either my or their expense.
There should be one white rivet on the front and secured with Velcro at the back for all levels. There should be no flat ends at all on ROTJ even for basic clearance as they are not ROTJ with flat ends.
I quote.
Shoulder Straps are securely mounted in front and may free float in back. They may be affixed with rivets, Velcro, or adhesive.
For level two certification (if applicable):
No visible rivets are allowed.
Shoulder straps do not have a flat surface at the ends.
Straps are ribbed 100%.
For level three certification (if applicable):
These are affixed in the front (no snaps, rivets or brads are visible).
These are affixed in the back (no snaps, rivets or brads are visible).
I get why overlaps should be outer over inner for better appearance but this clearly wasn't the case on a lot of troopers on set. I can accept this as a general rule.
The TD should be optional on Endor weathered troooers.
And holsters should be optional too.
If it makes it easier you could have Deathstar clearance and Endor clearance. After all these were on screen and we seem to have stormtroopers and sandtroopers for ANH. Why not for ROTJ?
In any case all GMLs and people with the power to pass troopers in all garrisons should have knowledge on the CRLs. I understand CRLs are recipes for idealised costumes but you should not get penalised for being screen accurate. It should be looked at as a bonus. I have had many troopers get turned down for clearance due to rivets on the shoulder straps. I assume they must be going for level 2 or higher but the rest of their costume is at a level 3 quality yet they are being turned down for rivets. That's my main gripe.
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Try heavy duty Velcro
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What do other ROTJ vendors think? As I and TM are the only two offering it to the 501st we are in agreement.
I don't need metadata to tell me that the pics I posted are of armour in preproduction wardrobe and in collections many years after.
You are obviously not up for being educated by the the vendors of armour and helmets that supply the 501st and will continue to deny even though solid proof has been supplied by the two vendors who make rotj armour and helmets.
Are you really in belief that they put rivets on the armour before filming then removed them for filming the re applied them back after filming because that's what you're saying. It's quite ridiculous when you read back what you are saying here.
I will continue to assemble armour how I know it was done originally. I will give customers who want me to assemble armour for them the choice of how it was done originally or how the 501st think it was done.
I asked for opinions and thought they would be constructive rather than dismissive and hypothetical.
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Unfortunately your on set photos mean nothing. How do we know the guy putting tds on each belt wasn't just over there to the right? Or that a photo on set wasn't just a lighting check or camera focus check or slider check while costumes were still sorting things out?
How do you know this? Again were you there? Have you watched the film? It's apparent on screen too.
The pics of rivets could be pics from the shop before the memo came out saying lose the rivets.
Really? Have you actually seen any screen used suits? I have shown at least 5 different suits at different times before during and after filming.
So I find this statement hard to swallow.
This makes mockery of the whole CRLUnless you , we, want a multi tiered multi variation rotj suit crl it's safer to make things to the LCD and MCDF and just coach people to follow the CRL for basic approval then do whatever they want after.
Paint the armour teal, or pink. Take the TD off. Lose the holster. Just accept it will not be suitable for some troops.
Wtf!
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There seems to be a lot of personal opinion here being touted as truth. <br><br>
I.e. The producer wanted this the director wanted that etc. How do you know this? Have you spoken to the producers or directors personally? I'm not bashing you for having an opinion but trying to state these opinions as fact is wrong and this is when the waters begin to get muddy through non facts being stated as fact. <br>
I have posted many pics of troopers on set with different configurations not just promo shots. Also shots of actual production costume dept. These things didn't just disappear when they walked on set. <br><br>
Now don't get me wrong as I'm sure some of you have done your homework but please let's stick to actual facts and not what you think are facts. <br><br>
ANH suits are as accurate as can be now because CFO posted all the archive pics in the public domain for all to see. Those are used extensively to accurize armour and helmet assembly. Strapping and rivet positions and sizes etc. Do you see all those on screen shots? No. I rest my case.
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The sterling is also designed for right handed use.
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This has been pointed out to me on another thread I started about inconsistencies in the CRL. <br><br>
Rivets in the Shoulder Straps<br><br>
For basic 501st approval the CRL clearly states that the shoulder straps may be riveted. If someone was denied by their GML, then their GML has not read the CRL. However if the person is applying for Expert Infantry the CRL is wrong but this will not stop someone from getting a costume approved.
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That's not correct Mark.The original were glued on, no rivets was ever used on production suits.
They did rivet the shoulder straps on ROTJ armour. I have photos to prove it from the costume dept. ANH is a different story.
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I rivet them on as they should be and as they were done for production. They are white rivets on white straps attached to white armour and are only 4mm wide. It's hardly surprising you cannot see them on screen. If they were 4 inches you'd still have problems seeing them on screen.... LOL
Most straps are hidden by the helmets sitting over them. It was filmed on film, not a digital HD, 4K bluray etc so the chances are that they had the 6 foot rule whilst filming back then which says if you cannot see it from 6 foot away don't worry about it......
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Yep. Run Forest run. That's a recast of my armour and helmet. Some parts like the shins are cast from someone else's armour. <br>
Maker of things is one to be avoided. <br>
The only suit that was cast from is one I made. Not cast from an original but casted from Cast from original.
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Thanks Tim. I'll pass anyone that's having a problem your way.
Just for the record I never said there was an army against me? I also never mentioned your name or said that you told me that I had to join. It was not you.
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Hi Eric,
The only reason I say" they" and "they" is that I didn't want to name any particular person or Garrison openly in public.
My post was merely highlighting the problems my customers are having when trying to get clearance. I assemble my armour screen accurately and how it was done originally. This is a problem with people getting clearance. I'll just have to give people the option of screen accurate or 501st acceptable.
From what you are saying there is no problem with screen accurate and it's down to GMls not really knowing what they are looking at.
I will just point anyone that's having problems to this thread and your post which clearly highlights that it is not the CRL that's wrong.
Thanks for clearing this up Eric. You are the first person that's done that.
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Tell your customers to come here, and better yet, have their GML's come here to so we can set them straight.
I would love to but they are stubborn as hell.
I posted this on the UKG forum some time back and was told I was not qualified to comment.
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For the basic approval the butt joint with cover stipe method is allowed.
For the (more accurate) Level 2 the CLR says: "[name of the part] use the overlap construction method.
Using the butt joint and cover strips is not allowed."
IMHO the direction of the overlap is not important and no reason to refuse approval.
After looking at various pictures from ROTJ I think the detonator should be an optional part like the holster.
Unfortunately local GML's sometimes have their own interpretation of the CLR... and it is nearly impossible to change their point of view.
Why for basic clearance is a cover strip allowed? They do NOT have cover strips. You allow this but not a rivet?
This was up on discussion in the staff forum a while ago and I thought we had already fixed the CRL. I guess we're too scared of changing the CRL these days that it never got around to.
Unfortunately nothing has changed and my customers are getting the brunt of it.
The detonator, I suppose you could argue that those particular troopers had chucked theirs toward some pesky ewoks.
LOL, I guess so...... If this is the case why can't the trooping trooper not have one? they could have used theirs?? LOL
For the basic approval the butt joint with cover stipe method is allowed.
For the (more accurate) Level 2 the CLR says: "[name of the part] use the overlap construction method.
Using the butt joint and cover strips is not allowed."
IMHO the direction of the overlap is not important and no reason to refuse approval.
After looking at various pictures from ROTJ I think the detonator should be an optional part like the holster.
Unfortunately local GML's sometimes have their own interpretation of the CLR... and it is nearly impossible to change their point of view.
IYHO the overlap is not important. BUT it seems to be with most GMLs..... GMLs are not supposed interpret a CRL they are supposed to follow it. How can you argue consistency if every GML is allowed to interpret the CRL? That's the argument I get. "We have to have a CRL that reflects consistency not screen accuracy" But it seems only if it suits the GML in charge?
As a ROTJ TK..(and owner of one of Marks suits for the last 5 years)..I wholeheartenly agree.
Yeah..the ROTJ is the "runt" of the litter...the "least desirable" to some..but thats still no excuse for the CRL to be so...wrong. Ot's a totally valid cossie..yet seems to be treated a bit like a second class citizen.
I don't have a holster. Cleared ok like that..but I was told I need the TD. Its a little thing..but I'd habe preferred none, if only to make the ROTJ stand out a little more from my ANH brethren.
The CRL model isn't even a ROTJ kit for griefs sake..it's a modified ANH. That shouldn't fly IMO.
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Yes, a modified ANH suit is not ROTJ and visa versa.
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One of my customers was pulled up on no detonator and no holster and overlaps the wrong way. Not sure why higher clearance says you "must" have outer over inner when they clearly had them either way on set. What?, higher clearance than an original screen worn suit? LOL
But yes, it could have been yet another over zealous uneducated GML......
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Quoted from the CRL.....
"The AM greaves (shins) shall be on the proper legs, with a new cover strip. The cover strip edge faces the inside of the leg. Note: There is a manufacturer defect with the AM greaves (shins) that may cause you to wear the them improperly. Please see the Tutorial titled :"AM armor shins: the proper way to assemble and wear", on the whitearmor.net"
I am not sure why AM is mentioned as AM is not ROTJ?
Also it seems that you are allowed a sterling E11 that is not based upon the MGC to pass but a rivet on the shoulder strap is not allowed?
As I said total madness.....
I am more than happy to sit down and go through the CRL with all GMLs who have little understanding of the ROTJ armour and it's construction and get this done right.
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Hi guys,
I am getting more and more frustrated at the CRL for ROTJ.
I make and sell ROTJ armour cast from an original suit.
Now, when I assemble the armour for customers I assemble it how it should be done and screen accurate right down to rivets original Newey poppers. I have spent countless hours researching how the original armour is supposed to be put together, what hardware was used, what materials were used. It took me 5 years to find a suitably accurate polypro belt to offer with my armour. I make from scratch everything. I vacuum form my armour, make Bubble lenses, I cast paint and assemble ANH and ROTJ mic tips, strapping and my own exclusive CFO decals.
Yet I am getting an increasing amount of customers getting refused 501st clearance because....... " they have the shoulder straps riveted on, they should be glued..... "you don't have a detonator"........" You need a holster"....... "Your legs and arms don't have the correct overlaps" etc, etc,.........
What should I do? I have presented solid proof to the 501st...... I have sent many photo's proving the shoulder straps were riveted on, I have sent photos of troopers on endor without Detonators or holsters..... Not just 1 or 2, a lot... and proof that the armour was assembled with overlaps anywhich way. But I get shot down by the top brass for causing trouble? REALLY?......NO, it's just that they cannot admit they are wrong.... I am then told that if I want change then I have to join the 501st to be heard and get people to listen......????? Are the 501st that short sighted and pretentious that you won't listen to fact unless I am in your "club"? because that's how it looks to me.
This is what I do. I have dedicated my life to bringing Troopers the best most accurate armour and helmets all cast from originals.
How much proof do you need? If you cannot see it, then why does it matter because I guarantee the public won't notice a white rivet on a white shoulder strap connected to white armour.... But it's enough for you to turn down a screen accurate stormtrooper costume? Surely the smiles on childrens faces is more important than the ego of the GML? Admit you are wrong.......
Here is some photographic proof of how the armour was assembled for the very troopers you are emulating. Baring in mind that most of these original ROTJ stormtroopers will not get into the 501st based on their inaccurate costumes.
Both myself and Paul aka TM ( sorry to drag you in bud) have sent pictures of screen caps and exhibition armour and helmets to the decision makers but they still will not budge. WHY????
I am the first to admit fault and I am quick to adapt and change things to reflect this. As soon as you know it all you may as well give up.......Why can't the 501st?
I am not starting this thread as a flame war or just to start trouble but as it affects me and my customers directly it has to be bought up. A civil discussion is what I am trying to have here.
I have asked to present pics of more than one suit so here they are.........
here are some pics of "REAL" armour.
Proof of rivets.......
A different suit with rivets......
Oh, another different suit with rivets
Costume department using rivets......
A nice pic of ROTJ TK's without holsters.
ROTJ TK's on Endor without Detonators or holsters......
Rather grainy but overlaps the "wrong way"
Thigh armour inner over outer........."Wrong"
Arms inner over outer........
Rivets on shoulder straps.
More overlaps the "wrong way"....
Original drawings of how the armour was to be assembled with notes on the rivets on the shoulder straps.
Do I have to give my customers a choice of a screen accurate ROTJ assembled armour and helmet or a not quite screen accurate costume that is accepted by the 501st? This goes against everything I am about but I am being forced in this direction.What's more frustrating is that the only two armourers that supply the 501st with screen accurate ROTJ armour are the ones being criticised and told that they are assembling the armour wrong!WE NEED CHANGE............All comments welcome. -
Looks great Greg. Nicely done.
ROTJ CRL Dilemma.....What should I do?
in Hard Armor (General Discussion)
Posted
I understand that the 501st isn't about prop replication but I don't understand why we get penalised for replicating them. Surely that should be the highest level. As it stands if an original Stormtrooper walked of the Set of Endor he would be refused entry into the 501st because his costume is too screen accurate. This I find ridiculous. Because the 501st choose idealised over screen accurate. If the 501st refuse to see it on screen or simply can't see it on screen why should it matter in real life. The public really are not going to see it either but it's there and always was.
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