Techne

Thanks, I appreciate it!

No problem! I relied on previous posters' threads to make my armor, so I'm glad if my build can help anyone else. Good luck with your builds!

You can just edit your original post, there should be an edit button at the bottom of it. And congratulations!

Here are some links to some of the threads that I was reading while I was making my build, just to clarify why I think the wider strip makes more sense, and why I've had the impression that it was the better choice. I'm going to quote some of the opinions in them. The quoted people may or may not have changed their opinions since then of course. Also, these are all former or non-DOs etc., and you've got the right to your own rulings; I'm not trying to hold this thread to past rulings or random people's opinions, I just want to make clear where my own reasoning has come from. Here's the one I linked to earlier: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/22285-quixotic5891s-anh-stunt-build-ata/page-3 Quixotic has large thigh-back strips like mine and asks if they're OK for EIB and Centurion. Locitus says "As long as it's carefully done and looks good then it's no issue." Troopermaster says "I have built thighs with strips as wide as yours and I think they look fine. You have to do whatever is needed to make your armour fit you and that is all that matters. I think you have done the right thing by putting the wide strip on the back and keeping the front as close to how they should be. I have put strips as wide as 40mm on the front to add a bit of extra girth too and they looked just fine since the wearer was a big guy." Ravenwood says "I think they look fine. You have to do what you have to do to make the armor fit, and I think you did the right thing by making it look accurate from the front. Keep up the good work trooper." In that thread, SCtrooper links to Wiggleplum's incinerator as another example: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/18177-any-major-problems-before-i-apply/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/21390-geaux-saints-anh-stunt-build-tm/page-4 Geaux Saints makes his arm strips thinner than the ridge, and there is a discussion: Locitus says "Looks like you kept the ledges that the cover strip sits on a little wide though. If you can, it's better to keep those the same width as the cover strip and trim for width of your arm on the back only. So if you have big arms you trim less on the back. You have the right technique though. :)" Troopermaster says "I was about to say the same thing on the flat joining edges. Only leave them bigger if you need more room and then use a wider joining strip to cover as much as the flat edge as possible." (my emphasis) http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/21702-ap-cover-strips-for-thighs-and-calves/ Discussing what's important in cover strip length, Locitus says "That is correct on. Commonly used widths are 20 mm for the legs and 15 mm for the arms, with a 25 mm strip for the back of the calves. If you need to stray from these widths don't worry about it, but try to keep the proportional differences." (my emphasis) http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/22913-finish-cover-strip-measurements/ Again a discussion of cover strip width: Locitus says "The numbers are approximations that look good together. We know for a fact that they varied. For example the cover strip on one of RS's original thighs is something like 19 mm in one end and 22 mm in the other. The original suits are simply not built with the same kind of attention we build ours with. I'm not really sure why this is such a big deal and why so many get caught up with it though." Minuteman says "They width varied. Full stop. And that´s okay imho. Stay with the cover strip size near those measurements and if that´s not possible, e.g. because you are a bigger trooper, then keep the proportions right." (my emphasis) tkrestonva says "Yes, I think it's just as important to have your cover strips proportionate to the actual size of your limbs. Too skinny or too fat would look off, even if it is the "correct" width." http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/23710-cover-stripshim-help/ gmrhodes (granted, not a DO) says "Yes larger rear cover strips are aceptable for EIB and Centurion :D" http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/22362-my-project-from-a-tm-kit-to-a-tantive-iv-boarding-party-stormtrooper/page-2 Here troopermaster discusses overall variation in cover strips: "I go for 15-17mm on the arms and 20-25mm on the legs. On some screen accurate builds I put a 25mm strips on the thighs with 22mm on the shins or 22mm on the thighs and 20mm on the shins, but always 25mm on the backs of the shins (gluing 10mm onto the shin leaving 15mm to cover the gap). Sometimes I cut the corners at 45 degrees and sometimes I leave them square. Sometimes I do a mixture of angled and squared ends on the same suit and vary the widths on either side. These were just costumes that were assembled for a cheap sci-fi movie. They did not agonise over minute details like we do when building armour so you have to use a carefree approach if you want to achieve a truly screen accurate look." and "That is the problem with all these builds lately. People trying too hard to do this or that a certain way when you should just trim the parts and get it assembled. I know not everyone wants to go for true screen accuracy even though they say they want to be as screen accurate as possible, but the going the way you are, Juan, is the only way to get a screen accurate look. This does not mean you have to take no care in what you are doing, quite the opposite, just look as though it has been rushed or slapped together. Going back to what I said about using different width strips on the same suit, it is quite possible that a lot of the armours in ANH were made like this. For instance, a bunch of ABS formed sheets would be brought in for trimming and I would say all the parts got piled up after being assembled by several people. Each part would be slightly different yet a finished suit could have parts assembled by many different people resulting in wider strips on one side compared to the other." I don't want to use these last few quotes to argue that we shouldn't strive for screen accuracy. I'm just saying that there seems to be a decent amount of variation in cover strips (although not as wide as mine), and that when necessary, one reasonable option seems to be to alter the back strips to cover the necessarily-wider ridge, and/or to keep the strips in proportion to the person's larger body.

Hmm. I have to say it just doesn't look as good to me personally. He also did the same to his other limbs, so at least his are consistent from one limb to another, whereas for me it would be the only one where it would be like that. I agree that it would be an easy fix. It's just a matter of principle and looks to me. I couldn't really change the calves though, the interior edge is as close in as it can get without showing the holes underneath. If I made the calf strips thinner I'd have to cut it all from the exterior edge of the strip, which would not only uncover the ridge but it would also be uncentered.

OK, thanks for the clarification on it being a requirement. First, here's a pic of me wearing the smoothed-over shims. Unfortunately I didn't line up the rivets when I was taking the pic, but it shows off the shims anyway. When it comes to the thighs, the reason I haven't just gone ahead and fixed them (and why I made them like this in the first place) is because I think they would look worse if they were thinned down to the standard screen size--because in doing so, I would reveal the raised ridge behind them. Excuse me for any repetition in explaining this, I just want to be clear what my issue is. The ATA armor (and I assume others?) has a raised ridge at the spot where the two parts of the limb clamshell pieces come together. The cover strip is placed on this ridge, covering it up. Optimally, the cover strip and the ridge would only be around an inch wide. (Obviously you know all this, I just want to explain from start to finish.) But in order to fit me, my ridge had to be more like two and a half inches wide at the top and two inches at the bottom. So I made my cover strip the same size. If I made my cover strip an inch wide, you could see the ridge for 3/4" on each side of the cover strip. It is my impression that both of these are true: 1) it is not screen accurate for the cover strip to be so wide 2) it is not screen accurate for the raised ridge to be visible However, I can only do one of these, not both. I can have a thin strip and visible ridges, or a wide strip and covered ridges. So either way I have to have some inaccuracy in order for it to fit me. Here are some close-up pics of my thigh backs, with red lines where I would have to make cuts, and red brackets showing where the raised ridge would be visible. Finally, here's a drawing of what it would look like if I cut the strips down to the screen accurate width: Between the two possible non-screen-accurate options (thin strip/visible ridges and wide strip/covered ridges), it is my feeling that it looks better to have a wide cover strip, and a covered-up raised ridge, for the following reasons: 1) There are no visible raised ridges anywhere else on my armor. This will make the raised ridge on the thigh back stick out as being inconsistent from the rest of the limbs, and especially the backs of the calves, which are obviously right next to them and can be seen and compared to each other easily. 2) Of course, the width of the thigh back cover strip is itself inconsistent compared to most of the rest of the cover strips on the armor, which is also a problem. However, 3) the calf back cover strips are themselves wider than the screen versions (due to fit as well), and so the thigh back cover strips don't look as wide in comparison with them as they would in comparison with normal strips, and 4) if I changed the thigh back cover strips to be an inch wide, that would exaggerate the size of the calf strips in comparison. 5) As far as I can recall, I've never seen visible raised ridges approved before (at least not ones that would be so wide), so my general feeling has always been that they're a bigger problem than the wide cover strips. Maybe I'm wrong here, that was just my impression after trying to look it up when I was building it (such as on the link I showed on the previous page). Here's some pics of the calf strips up close, showing how they also can't be thinner or they would reveal the hooks and holes (and ridges), and of the calves and thighs right next to each other, showing how their cover strips look visually in proportion to each other right now. I'm an artist, and these issues of proportionality and consistency are important to me. The calf cover strips are about an inch and a half wide. The calf strips, like the thigh strips, have to be that wide in order to fit me, and in order to then cover up the hooks and holes attachment method behind them. Unlike the thighs, they do, I suppose, have a gap. I have to say I don't understand the gap issue. I understand what you mean--I was able to connect the two pieces of the thighs directly against each other, so the interior and exterior cover strips do not cover a gap. But I don't really see why that's a deciding factor. From my point of view, it's still a matter of fit, gap or not. My thighs are "wider diameter" and require a wider ridge, which in my mind also requires a wider strip to cover the ridge. Just in case anybody doesn't believe that I need the armor to be so wide, here are some pics of it being tight against my thighs at both the top and bottom, from different angles. It won't fit unless it's that wide. (The same is true for my calves.) So I am requesting to have the wider cover strips be excused due to necessary fit. I'm worried that this sounds like a big legalistic excuse-fest. I don't want to argue my way into Centurion, I only want to get it if I deserve it, but I do want to make my case. And I don't mind making changes; I've already made several changes in response to other suggestions. I am just trying to explain why I am very hesitant, at best, to make the strips thinner and thus reveal the raised ridges, which to my mind just aren't meant to be visible. Thanks for listening.

One of my favorite blaster builds...I was wondering when we'd get to see your armor! Good luck.

Sorry, somehow there was a glitch and the thread didn't bump when I wrote my last post...anything else I need to do here?

Anything else I need to do here?

Ha ha, great picture. Congrats.

Finished removing the seam between the kidneys and the side shims. It looks pretty good, I'm happy with how that turned out even if it wasn't necessarily required. Nice to have a bit of a push to go a step further tnan I would have on my own. Meanwhile, I'm going on my first official troop tomorrow, and it's the biggest thing my garrison does each year. Excited and nervous. This will actually be my first in-person contact with other troopers

Thanks Eric. I am actually currently working on the side shims. I tried some silicone a few days ago but it didn't look as good, so I put on some ABS paste yesterday and will be sanding it down today. I am happy to try the belt higher or keep it where it is. My blaster is pretty heavy so it does weigh it down. So far I think you've only been talking about the thigh cover strip as a suggestion. If you're making it a requirement, please let me know. I used that thigh pic as a reference when building it. I just can't make the cover strip that small and still have it fit me. Or at least, if I made it that small, the flat ridge of the back of the thighs would show for about an inch on both sides of the cover strip. Which in my opinion, at least, would look even worse than a wide cover strip. A wide cover strip isn't great, I know. It's inconsistent with the cover strips on the arms and the front of the legs. But on the other hand a thin strip with a wide ridge on either side would look unfinished, to my eye, and also be inconsistent, since the ridge isn't visible under any other strip. I just see it as the wide cover strip creating one problem (inconsistent with other strips), and the thin cover strip creating two problems (unfinished-looking and inconsistent with the lack of visible ridges elsewhere).

Do you mean, the belt should be entirely on the kidney piece in the back?

OK thanks guys. I had seen a few threads a while ago that seemed to frown on the ABS paste for the shims since it's kind of a permanant change, but I'll take a whack at it. Maybe I'll try the white silicone first since that's more removable and ideally I'd like to be able to remove the shims in the long-term. Nice to see your thread, Jancelot.

Any other comments or things I should work on? The only thing we haven't talked about in detail was the suggestion about possibly minimizing my side shims. I'm not sure exactly how to do that, or what it would theoretically look like in the end. I don't think I've ever seen pics of side shims that have been "camouflaged" into the armor (I assume that's the goal here).

Thanks, I appreciate it. And thanks for your work critiquing my thread and everyone else's in the time you were DO. Reading your comments (and those of past DOs) are the best way to learn how to do this stuff.

No problem at all, it was actually very interesting to look at all that stuff and try to figure it out I believe the ATA kit was actually molded from an ROTJ suit, and then modified to become more like ANH, is that right? I think I read that somewhere but all that armor lineage stuff is confusing to me so I could well be wrong. Thanks...and advice well taken. I have worn the suit a fair amount for informal things, and have already been replacing straps and snap plates as they fail , doubling up the number of snaps and the thickness of the elastic. All my elastic ends are currently folded over so the snaps go through two levels of elastic, but I've found that doubling the entire piece of elastic and not just the ends works even better, so when they fail I've been switching to that. Thanks also to all the other people who have commented above.

THIGHS Ok, I understand what you mean with the thigh. You’re right, there’s no gap between the two parts in my thighs. But do you really think that it would look better with a thin cover strip covering only part of the flat ridge? I mean, I did think of that when I was first making it, but decided against it. While I agree that the wide cover strip doesn’t look great either, at least in my opinion it looks better than a thin strip that only partially covers the flat section, which would be the only place in the armor in which that occurs. Part of my thinking on this, as I made my thighs, was based on reading the threads of other people with wide strips. This thread is one in particular that shaped my thinking: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/22285-quixotic5891s-anh-stunt-build-ata/page-3 Now I think this guy’s are even bigger than mine. But it seems, based on the comments from Locitus and Troopermaster, that the wide cover strip is fine in his case. Anyway…things may have changed, and everyone probably has different opinions anyway. I’m just saying threads like this are why I made them the way I did, and I have to say it still seems like the best solution in my own mind. That doesn’t mean it is acceptable under current Centurion expectations, of course, I leave that up to you all, and if it's not, I can accept that. KIDNEYS You took me by surprise with the comments about the kidneys…most of the other comments about possible changes are things I’ve already had in my own mind, but I thought I got the kidneys right. So I immediately spent a couple hours searching through ATA-specific EIB, Centurion, and build threads, looking at other people’s kidneys, as well as screen captures. In terms of other people’s threads, what I’ve found is that some people do it one way, and some people do it another way. Apparently, whichever way is right, a lot of people get it wrong! So not much help there. Before I get to the screen captures, I want to explain how I originally decided which way is up on my kidneys. I was originally totally unsure, but then when I placed it against my butt plate, it became immediately clear which way it should go (or at least that’s what I thought). As you can see here in the picture on the right (from my build thread), if the kidneys are placed in one direction (the way I have it connected in my current armor), the curve of the kidneys lines up perfectly with the curve in the butt plate. But if you flip the kidneys the other way, like in the picture on the left, then there are two bumps in the kidneys that don’t match up with the butt plate curve. This seems like a clear sign that the bumps are supposed to be on top, against the back plate (where they do line up), and the smooth part of the kidneys should be on the bottom, lined up against the butt. This idea of the continuity of form also makes especial sense when you figure that some suits have continuous butt/kidney plates, like this one from the Star Wars Identities tour suit, so they must have been designed to have continuous shapes and not discordant shapes: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/36-aagqeign/ Here’s another good picture from Jose Andres’s recent Centurion application. He attached it my way and you can see how the kidneys and butt lines up. If you want I can send you some links to people who did it the other way, in which the bumps make for an obvious mismatched set of shapes at the butt/kidney line: It’s on this thread: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/25211-tk-80403-requesting-anh-stunt-centurion-status-ata-96/ Anyway, it seems to me that the visual evidence leans towards the orientation that I’m using right now. In the screencaptures I looked at, the kidneys do angle up and out, like you said. But depending on what angle you’re looking at my kidney plate from, mine does too, so that seems ambiguous. More importantly to me, there are several shots of the division between the kidney and butt plates, and none of them have the curves/bumps that you’d see if you flipped my kidneys upside down. They’re all flat and perfectly matched in shape, like in the direction I have mine in now. To be fair, the ATA kidneys may be inaccurate, and the original suits may not have those bumps at all, it’s a little hard to tell. But at the least, they didn’t have the bumps at the bottom: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/917-armor-backjpg/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/892-kidney-butt-01/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/891-kidney-butt-02/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/1442-star-wars-a-new-hope-bluray-capture-01-166/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/1356-star-wars-a-new-hope-bluray-capture-01-19/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/1465-star-wars-a-new-hope-bluray-capture-01-189jpg/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/1466-star-wars-a-new-hope-bluray-capture-01-190jpg/ http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/image/1511-star-wars-a-new-hope-bluray-capture-01-235jpg/ So between the screen captures and the shape of the armor itself, I feel like the kidneys are correct as they are now. Sorry if I’m going into this at length. I just enjoy getting into the details of things. I really do appreciate your opinion on this, I'm just arguing for why I made the decisions I did.

In my Centurion thread, they suggested I fix my right ear, which was sticking out from the helmet quite a bit at the top. I took it off and checked out the problem. It turns out the two helmet pieces weren't very close to each other. The cap was popping away from the face, and that kept the ear away from both. You can see here how they were not touching, and how I could press them closer together. The obvious fix was to rivet the two parts together. I know normally most people only need one in that section, but I put in two more, and it worked like a charm to press them together. Then when I put the ear back on, it was able to lay very flat to the bucket, just like it should. Nice to have a simple fix! Still a gap at the bottom, but the top is much improved.

Well, the ear wasn't too hard. Much better now.

Hi Eric, Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I just saw your post about your new format for reviewing EIB and Centurion requests, and it makes a lot of sense to me. I appreciate all the kind words. As a teacher myself, I know it always works best to compliment people before starting the criticism! Actually I'm just joking there because everything you said under Fit and Assembly was very reasonable. The thigh back cover strips are huge, I know. But I wasn't able to make them any smaller. Actually as you can see in that interior shot, the back connection between the two thigh pieces is pretty wide. I made the front strip the regulation size, but then in order to make them fit, I had to make the backs much larger. Somehow I just have huge thighs. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make them smaller, because it was silly to me how wide they were, but they just wouldn't fit otherwise. Even at that size, they were really tight when I first built them. They're now a bit less tight. I've been losing some weight, so perhaps eventually they'll be loose enough where I can make them smaller. If you want I can post some close-up pics looking down on them while I'm wearing them. The same is basically the case for the side shims. At the moment I need them in order for it to fit with no gap. The shims are actually why I did the thing on my left side with the rivets on the abs and snaps on the shim...that way if I ever manage to get rid of the shims, I can keep the rivet side attached, and just put new snaps on the kidney plate. At any rate, I'd welcome any suggestions for visually minimizing them. As for the ear gap, you're right, that does look bad. I knew there was a gap but it must have gotten worse since the last time I attached it. I'll see what I can do and post some pics. Thanks and I'll get back to you soon, -Chris

I saw I had the [102] appended to my tread title...but isn't that only supposed to go there if I've been approved?

Thanks! Glad to join you in the ranks. Are you going to be going up for Centurion? Your suit seemed top notch to me.

Name = Chris Wildrick ID = TK 31198 FISD Name = Techne Garrison = Garrison Excelsior Armor = ATA Helmet= ATA Blaster= Doopy’s full resin, built by me Height = 6’1†Weight = 190 lbs Boots = TK Boots Canvas belt = Trooperbay Hand Plates = Trooperbay rubber Electronics = I have an Aker amp and ROM/FX Raw, and two hand-built squirrel fans, but don't currently use them Neck Seal = Trooperbay Holster = made by me Here are my blaster and armor build threads, and my EIB thread, if anyone wants to see them. It was suggested in my EIB thread that I make a couple changes before I applied to Centurion--to make the painted area of my ab buttons smaller, and to cut down the ends of my plastic belt to reduce the size of the 45-degree cuts at the ends. I've made both of these changes and feel happy with them. I put them at the very beginning of the pics, below. I didn't re-take the rest of the pics after making these changes, since they were pretty small and cosmetic, and didn't affect the fit of the suit. But, I can re-shoot anything if desired. Otherwise, I'm mostly copying the text and images from my EIB thread, and adding the new ones required for Centurion when appropriate. Once again I'll say that I've had a great time making this build. It was a real challenge and it was very satisfying to finally complete(?) it! Thanks to the very many troopers and their threads that I've followed in order to build this, obviously I would have never been able to do it without them. Here are the pics. I have others, and can always take more, if you want to see anything else. New change: Ab Buttons repainted to cover just the tops of the buttons. The paint colors are Testor's 1138 grey and Humbrol French Blue. New change: Belt corners reduced in size to 1/2" Now on to the standard pics: Front Back Right, Arm Down Right, Arm Up. I have 1" shims of ABS on both sides to close the side gap. Right, Arm Up, Detail. The upper-ab snap is partially visible here, a detail shot may be found below. Left, Arm Down. I'm embarrassed to say I forgot to take this pic during my most recent photo shoot, so I am substituting this pic from the previous shoot. I didn't make any major changes to the armor between shoots, I just didn't like how the green-screen cloth reflected green onto the armor. Left, Arm Up. Left, Arm Up, Detail. 3 split rivets on both sides of the ab and kidney plates. There's a bit of a space between the kidney/shim and the ab plate here. When I normally wear it that's not usually there. I must have left my belt a little looser than normal (although I see it in the green-screen pic too, strangely). Again, I can take pictures again to show how those parts are normally flush, or show other older pictures, if necessary. Action Shot Bucket Off. Lower your chin, TK-31198, it makes you look annoying! Argh. Cod and Butt Plate Attachment, Outside and Inside. 2 snaps and a split rivet. Interior Strapping; Kidney Is Separated from Butt Plate Detail Showing the Inside of the Kidney/Ab Split Rivets Detail of the Right-Side Ab Snap Shoulder straps float free and are held down by elastic. White elastic is used to connect the chest and back underneath the plastic shoulder straps Arm strapping detail, so you can see the black strap that goes around my arm from the shoulder bells, which isn't visible in the main picture. No return edge on forearms Thigh pack is attached by split rivets, and the corners are curved. Outside and inside pics. Shin Sniper Plate, No Rivets. Front and side pics. Shins close in back using the hook method. Helmet Front, including Hovi mic. All helmet details are hand-painted. Helmet Back Helmet Left. Both ears have 3 screws and 4 bumps, with 1 of the bumps painted. Sorry my neck seal got all bunched up here. And I see my shoulder strap elastic came off. Very slick of me. Helmet Right Green Lens Color S-trim on bottom of helmet Scuffed boots Black Gloves with White Rubber Hand Guards Blaster, Left. 6 total T-tracks and 2 power cylinders. Blaster, Right. The center painted bolt section looks kind of gold in the light here but is actually silver. Blaster, D-ring Blaster Mods: working trigger, moving selector switch, moving bolt Neck Seal Thermal Detonator. It has black pan-head slotted screws and aluminum 1" clips. Holster Close-up of the holster attachment from front and back. I used split rivets that go through the outside, but connect to a snap on the inside, so the holster can snap on and off, but it looks like a rivet on the outside. Also shows the drop boxes are closed in the back and attached by one rivet. This is a picture of my belt BEFORE I cut the ends down to make the angled parts smaller. See the top of this post for a pic of the current angles. Holster reversed to show the snaps. And I believe that's it. Again, if you have any questions, or would like me to explain something in greater detail, or want more pictures, please let me know. Thanks!

I've made a few changes. Before I went up for EIB, I lengthened the shoulder bell-to-bicep straps a bit, so less of my wrist is showing, about an inch less than before. If I lowered it any more the bicep would be completely loose from the shoulder bell. In the discussion on my EIB thread, they recommended that I remove my button paint and keep the paint on the top part of the buttons, and not have it go down the sides of the buttons. Looking at some paint removal threads, I decided to go with paint thinner and a toothpick. I've seen warnings about how too much paint thinner can melt your plastic, so I was careful about that. I tried to see if I could wipe the paint off using a q-tip, but that didn't do much. Mostly I got the paint wet with paint thinner, then scraped away at it with the point of the toothpick, using a fair amount of pressure sometimes, and occasionally rewetting it with thinner. It took a while but eventually came off. Then I repainted. They also noted that the 45-degree cuts at the end of my belt were too big (3/4 inch on each side), and that I cut a bit off each end of the belt to make the removed sections smaller (1/2 inch on each side). I put a metal ruler under the plastic to make sure I didn't cut into the canvas and trimmed it to the edge of the square, which is where they recommended I make the cut. Completed: So that's it...now on to try at Centurion.