EJGreen

I'm so sorry, Jason, for not responding to your question sooner. Echo has an ongoing thread regarding the sale of rivets in the sales thread. Here's the link to get you there... http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/23970-fs-centurion-level-rivet-sets/ I've searched local hardware stores for these things. You would think the big-box stores like Lowe's or Home Depot would have them but I've not had luck so I followed the recommendation to buy through Echo. I ended up order three sets of them in case any of the rivets got ruined for whatever reason or another. It's a good idea to have some spares lying around in case of catastrophes.

From what I can see from the screen captures, it looks like the ammo pack should be level with the ground.

It wasn't until after the fact that I had a "duh" moment and realized that the 7th split rivet was for the cod piece. Nonetheless, I was "saved" when my packet of rivets arrived from Echo, yesterday. I was smart enough to order three sets of them in case any more rivets died while furthering my cause. With that being said, I now have the cap rivets to attach the ammo pack to the right thigh. I've seen pictures where the ammo pack sits level to the ground and others where it appears to be attached at an angle. Any thoughts on what was screen accurate? Once these pieces are riveted together, can I expect the ammo pack to rotate up and down or will it stay put?

I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is for your suit (EIB or Centurion) but a common detail made about the forearms is to trim the return edges completely around the edges to include the raised square track patterned ridge like so... Things are progressing nicely.

What I've done at this point is make the determination as to where I need to mark the holes to drill for the split rivets in the kidney and AB plate. Because the kidney has already been cut with the 22mm notches it's important to plan your rivets using the kidney. I made a measurement from the edge of the notch to the opposite end and divided that by two in order to find the placement of the center rivet, I then made equal measurements from the outter edges to place the remaining two... Confident that I had my rivets planned where I wanted them I used my drill to make the holes for the rivets... Then I simply clamped the kidney plate to the AB plate--making sure that the edges are all aligned and used the preexisting holes in the kidney to mark the same in the AB plate. I then drilled the holes into the AB plate and they have lined up quite nicely! NOTE TO BEGINNERS: Cut your 22mm notches into the lower corners of the kidney before riveting your kidney and AB plate together! Also plot where your rivets will go by using the kidney plate as opposed to the AB plate. You don't want to drill a hole into your AB plate that would coincide directly where the notch on the kidney would be. I've seen this happen in other builds and it can be frustrating to fix after the fact. Next, I cut three pieces of 1" black elastic strips about 3" long. I then folded over about 1/4" on each end and sewed them down to help prevent fraying... Using the tip from a soldering iron, I poked two holes into each strip making sure the holes are 20mm apart (the rivets should be placed 10mm back from the outside edges of the kidney and AB plate). Here's where the fun began! I have no experience with rivets at all so I poured through the forums to see what's the best way to install these split rivets. A common technique is to split the prongs using a small phillips screwdriver and hammer. Well, I won't show you what happened the first time I attempted to do this--that poor rivet ended up looking like it was run over by a freight train! You have no idea how frightening this was for me because I ordered my split rivets from Trooperbay and there were only supposed to be 6 in the bag (with washers). Luckily there were actually 7 in the bag so I had to make sure that I proceeded with caution. Don't bang the hell outta these rivets! They don't really require a lot of heavy pounding. On my next attempt, I was able to separate the prongs just enough that I could simply hammer them down until they were flat and secure. Here's the final results... Looking at the photo above, you'll see why you want to cut the kidney notches and use that edge for measuring out your split rivets. There's a much greater distance from the bottom edge of the AB plate to the first rivet than there is on the kidney. I just have to paint the rivet heads white with paint and move on.

As promised, here are recent pics of my progress... Here you can see my torso armor that's been constructed with the bracket/elastic loop system. I've applied a couple coats of white paint to the screw heads and I'm rather pleased with the way it turned out. You'll notice that I've cut the 22mm square notches from the bottom corners of the kidney. A look at the inside As I mentioned, yesterday, I took an hour and a half drive to a Tandy Leather store where I purchased a couple bags of the nickel plated line 24 snaps. The owner sold me a setting anvil and press. The total cost of all of this was just under $18.00. My shipment from Trooperbay also arrived yesterday. I now have my correct S-trim for my bucket, chemical gloves, unpainted hand guards, and a set of 6 split rivets for my torso pieces...

I appreciate the feedback, again, brother. I do apologize if I appeared to be making a bigger deal out of this than necessary.

It's not so much a mystery as there are several images from the gallery. Perhaps it's just me. I just don't see how a single snap and elastic strap can hold the right side together. I understand that the belt would add some closure but I also foresee this as being too simple. There's bound to be some give in the elastic and a of of wiggle room between the kidney and the AB plate which could create a wide gap between the connection. In this image, we can clearly see the snap at the upper right corner of the AB plate. There's also evidence of the black elastic strap poking out between the kidney and the AB plate. From the RS Suit we can see the male snap from the inside of the AB plate. I'm assuming that the elastic straps on the left side were either cut or torn. Another example of the RS Suit where it appears that the end of the elastic strip that was snapped to the AB plate was just glued to the kidney. I have yet to see any images of the kidney that shows the presence of a snap or rivet holding this strap in place. This looks like the female end of the snap that would connect to the male snap on the AB plate.

I'm building an RT-MOD suit to meet Centurion standards as well as close to screen accuracy as I can possibly achieve. There's a lot that I know about connecting the kidney plate to the AB plate using the six split rivets on the left side with the 25mm black elastic strips. What I don't know much about is what was done with the RIGHT side of the armor. I know that there is a single snap in the upper right hand corner of the AB plate. CRL says that this male snap does not have to be functional but I know that in the original suits that it was functional. I can't imagine why they would put a snap there for no reason. From what I've seen from screen captures and pausing movie scenes I can see that there was a strip of black elastic (most likely 25mm) that was attached to this single male snap on the AB plate. What I can't seem to figure out is what else is going on here. What kept the right side of the kidney/AB pieces closed? I've seen different methods that others have used on their builds but I'd really like to find out what they did on the original suits.

Trooperbay appears to be down again.

Trust me, brother, your build thread is always open in a new tab on practically every electronic device I have! I'm always jumping back and forth from it as I can appreciate your complex methods as being, well... you. One thing I noticed about your rivet method is that you used reinforcement strips of abs for added strength. I'm not saying that I couldn't do that. I just have an OCD complex for getting as close to replica as I can because, well... that's me. One thing that I've seen recurring in several builds is the popularity of Tandy snaps. Being an impatient person who hates to wait for the mailman, I located a Tandy Leather store about an hour north of me. Needless to sayyou can guess where I'm headed today. Still have pics to post later in the day.

Please, dear brother--no need to apologize! You've got a military career and a family. I know that relates to a life outside of the FISD. In any case, I've made the determination of which edge of the kidney plate is up. When I made pencil marks where the square notches are supposed to be cut, it made much more sense. There's only one way where the edges of the square cuts in the kidney plate line up with the edge of the butt plate. I've made the 22mm notch cuts, everything is bracketed together and I'm currently waiting for the paint on the screw heads to dry. I'll have pics posted later in the day. In the meantime, USPS said that my retail therapy from Trooperbay is expected to arrive this afternoon. Included are my gloves and latex hand guards, S-trim for my bucket, and the split rivets for my torso pieces. I had also bought a neck seal but got a refund because he didn't have my size in stock. I'm kinda excited because I found the hand guards that require painting. I picked up a bottle of latex fabric paint today so I hope to have something to do this weekend. I still have LOTS of questions and research to do for the rest of the strapping. I know that one side of the torso has the six split rivets with the black elastic but I'm not sure what to do with the other side. I still need to figure out the "screen appropriate" method for the shoulder strapping and snapping. I do need to purchase my snaps. I have ZERO experience with that process and have no idea what I'm looking for. I know that the "Dritz" brand of snaps was a favorite method for a few troopers but I still don't feel confident to make that purchase.

This may sound like a stupid question but in terms of the RT armor, which edge of the kidney plate is up? Upon first glance, it would appear that the top and bottom edges are almost symmetrical but looking at it from different angles, there's a curvature to it and one edge feels a bit wider than the the other. I know that I need to cut the square notch in the lower corner but I want to make sure I'm cutting out the right corners.

Makes sense, Germain. I appreciate your input as always.

This image gives an idea of what I'm talking about. It looks as though the ends of the elastic were riveted directly to the bridges of the chest and back plates. I'm assuming that the molded shoulder bridge covered the elastic strip.

Thanks for pointing that out, Germain. I must admit, however, that I've already drilled holes for my brackets and I'm anticipating a huge ordeal in order to spread the outside brackets even further. I'm guessing that I would have to create a batch of ABS paste, fill in the old holes and sand them down. What I do find interesting in the first pic, however, is that the brackets appear to be attached (riveted?) to the inside face of the chest plate as opposed to a return edge. In fact, I've seen that very same thing in several photos from the RS suit. While I'm analyzing the same photo, if you look at the shoulder bridge there's evidence of rivets up there. According to the Centurion CRL, the shoulder straps are supposed to free float in the back (held with the thin elastic band) and they should be glued in the front. I have seen contradicting photos that give the impression that the white elastic bridging the chest and back piece appear to be sandwiched between the armor bridges and underneath the ridged shoulder bridge. Then I have seen where the elastic material is attached underneath the bridges of the chest and back pieces.

I thought I would update everyone on my conversations with Steve (Gazmosis) about my bracket placement. I've recently shown him the photos of my work above and he's given me two-thumbs up! In the same conversation, he mentioned that he suggest a recommendation to Rob (maker of the RT suit) to sell his kits with return edges. I know, now, that this is something that he does on request but when I initially contacted Rob about my suit, I had no idea that he accepted such personal requests. Hindsight being what it is, I would've ordered my kit that way.

After much thought (and beer) I envisioned the possibility of placing these brackets like they were meant to installed. The chest, back, kidney, and butt pieces all have sufficient return edges on them that are capable of mounting the brackets to. The only return edge I didn't have was on the edge of the AB plate. There was a "hint" of a return edge along the top curve of the AB plate that I thought I could enhance with a bit of work using my heating iron. So, that's what I've done! I know, I know, it's not the sexiest looking return edge that you're likely to see but it is functional and you can see that I was able to mount my brackets to it... Once I got the brackets and elastic loops installed in the AB plate, it was just a matter of lining the AB plate with the chest piece and carefully measuring were the brackets needed to go on the chest piece. I used pencil marks where everything should line up and then drilled my holes in to the chest plate and screwed everything together... Here's a look at the inside of the pieces screwed together... A look at the overlap... Look ma! No tape... Now, it's just a matter of attaching the brackets to the remainder of the pieces. I will go back and paint the screw heads with white paint when everything is complete. Note to beginners: If you're planning to go this route make sure that when you screw in one side of the bracket that you leave the other side of the bracket open so that you can slip the elastic loop onto it. Also, it's easier if you secure the brackets with the elastic loops to the chest piece first and then finish off the AB plate. I did it in reverse and had a bit of a hard time trying to work with my tools between the overlap of the AB plate and the chest pieces.

Congratulations, Jason, on the arrival of your big brown box! It's an exciting moment that we all love to share. As everyone has already mentioned, measure several times before making those cuts and ask as many questions as you can think of. Since you're ultimate goal is to reach Centurion, it's best to start with those standards from the get go. It's a lot easier to go from the beginning straight to Centurion as opposed to stopping at EIB along the way.

Excellent work, Dan. I'm sure you're gonna make it!

When I look closer at the top edge of the AB plate, there's an "implied" return edge there that I could probably make more pronounced with the heat iron... What's confusing me is the difference in contours between the bottom of the chest plate and the top of the AB plate... There's gotta be some type of overlap between these two pieces otherwise there's a big gap between the two pieces. I was looking at Tim's (Dark CMF's) build and he screwed the brackets into the bottom edge of the chest but then he attached the other brackets into the back side of the AB plate.... Photo courtesy of Dark CMF. All rights reserved. Void where prohibited. The overlap is going to hide the screws in the top edge of the AB plate, correct? Don't know if I could sleep at night if I did it this way.

There's a nice return edge at the bottom of the chest plate--enough to get screws into it. In terms of overlap between the chest and the AB plate I have a couple more pics... I'm simply holding the chest plate up with my hand but I understand about the overlap. It's possible that I could trim some of the top edge from the AB plate to make it shorter. I admit that I could be wearing the whole setup a bit high as well. In terms of the overlap, however, is there such a thing as "too much" or "not enough?"

I've ordered my rivets from Echo and until they get here, I'm not able to attach the ammo pack to the right thigh piece. I'm also waiting on a package from Trooperbay which will have my neck seal, accurate gloves w/ latex guards and some other stuff that I don't remember at the moment. Still on the hunt for those pesky black boots! Anyway, moving on, here's some pics of a fitting of the upper torso pieces... It's actually a comfortable fit. It's not too tight and not too loose. I was actually surprised that I was able to tape everything up and then step into it, like a pair of pants, and pull it up. I'm not sure if everything is properly lined up from front to back. I've got the cod piece taped up pretty high and there's quite a bit of it inside the ab plate as you can see below.... At the same time, however, you'll notice from the images above (from the sides) that there's nothing really matching up to the side edges of the butt plate. I know that the belt is going to cover up some of this area but for the life of me, I haven't been able to locate the canvas belt that I had ordered a few months ago. I will say that I did receive a set of the wire brackets/elastic loops and I've been inspecting the return edges on these pieces to see exactly where these brackets will screw into. Anyone who's followed a RT build thread knows that there's not a lot of return edges on the upper body pieces and there's been some discussions as to how to use the brackets with the RT suit. I know that some Centurions have screwed the brackets into the interior face of the plates where there wasn't enough return edge. It's acceptable but it's also been stated that it's not always preferred. I've had a side-bar conversation with Steve (Gaz) about what to do here. Did you know that Steve's actually a really nice guy? For some reason, I assumed that someone with the power to grant Centurion medals would be a bit pompous ("You're too short! DENIED!") but he's not like that at all. Seriously, great guy. If you see him tell him I said "hey!" Anyway, I asked about the brackets and their installation and how it would affect Centurion if there's not enough return edges and he stated, "brackets are not required for Centurion!" At the same time, however, he understood my OCD for screen accuracy and he did state that because RT suits rarely have return edges on the upper armor, I could either screw the brackets into the face of the plates or I could use a heat iron to create return edges. Honestly, I've got solid return edges on both the chest and back plates. There's also a nice return edge on the butt and kidney pieces. Where there's a bit of an issue is a lack of return edge on the AB plate and the cod piece. I bought a heat iron that I used for ironing out the thumb print from my bicep but I'm not sure how difficult it would be to create a return edge all the way around these pieces. I've been putting the upper armor off for as long as possible. Working with so many pieces at one time (with so many CRL's), it's something that I've been dreading. But there's not much left to do and it's gotta get done at some point or another. As always, your comments, feedback, suggestions, and alcoholic beverages are appreciated.

Thank again, Germain! FISD is a wonderful place indeed!

Thanks for the clarification, Germain. I really do appreciate the amount of feedback you've given me these past several days! As promised, here's a few pics of what I've completed recently... The sniper plate cured rather nicely. I think it's got a strong enough bond so I'm not worried about it falling off on me... Here's a pic with my calf and thigh armor on. I'm still searching for those elusive BLACK TK boots that I can dye white. Until then, my shins drop down to my ankles... Lastly, I've rounded the corners of the ammo pack for the right thigh armor. I pretty much used the same technique as everyone else: use the TD pipe to draw a rounded corner, trim with scissors and sand until smooth. Now that I have confirmation about the ammo pack rivets, I can start searching for those. Anyone know of a good place to get them locally?