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Lawful suits.


Rolf
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Hi gang.

I´m not here to start a A bomb.

I just wanna ask a question :) :

 

ATA is a cast of the CAP suit, and the 501st FISD have approve the ATA suit.

And therefor see the ATA, as a lawful suit to buy right.

 

Scootch have buy the CAP molds from CAP, and have therefor the rights to the CAP suits now, and under the name CAP-WEST.

Scootch said the 501st FISD have approve he´s suit too, as he got the molds now.

So i guess the CAP-WEST is also a so called "lawful" suit to buy right, if the ATA is, there is a cast of now Scootch suit.

 

The CAP/CAP-WEST are a TE cast.

CAP have earlier used the SDS shoulders, but CAP-WEST used TE shoulders.

Only the TK knee, should a TM TK knee.

So beside the TK knee, the CAP-WEST should be a lawful suit to buy right right.

 

Peace out

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Rolf --

 

From Scootch, in a post here, about a month or two ago:

 

" I'm in possession of the CAP bucks. I'd like to clarify what I have:

 

Armor and faceplate 2005 TE Sandtrooper

cap n back modified 2007 TE2 *

Stormtrooper bits ie ab buttons and knee plate TM *

TD cannister keypad Crashmann *

 

* = to be replaced winter of 09

 

 

I do not limit myself to vac-forming trooper stuff exclusively, it is something I do for my friends and aquaintances. To date I've done more scratch build buck making and forming for people outside of Star Wars. I would like to be clear here that I am speaking for myself....... any pieces in my buck stash which are not 2005 TE will be replaced with hand made bucks by myself over the winter before I will offer suits to the 501st. I will not stoop to the lowness others have to report how CAP got the TM, and TE2 parts, I know who and why but it's not important. As far as the helmet I have been given the green light by the 501st to offer it to fellow members as it has been altered / improved. I'll have a new helmet in 2010. Mike is correct that there are so many ANH kits out now the concern should no longer be of "recasting" but more of quality assurance. What is necessary to the future of ANH trooper armor and getting people into it is Quality. Personally I'm more interested in the quality of a product than who has made it. "

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Hi Rolf,

Not to hijack your thread. But just to clear a few thing up. If I would to recast my TE would that be lawful? Because that is all CAP did and ATA just recast CAP. I'm not in for an argument and I have no intention of recasting unless I get the blessing of the 501st, but I still don't understand why some recasts are accepted and some aren't? Surely a recast is a recast? I just wish someone could clear this up. I have worked in the film prop business and know I could do a bang up job if I wanted to and the quality and price would be competitive. This is only a hypothetical discussion. B)^_^

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Hi Rolf,

Not to hijack your thread. But just to clear a few thing up. If I would to recast my TE would that be lawful? Because that is all CAP did and ATA just recast CAP. I'm not in for an argument and I have no intention of recasting unless I get the blessing of the 501st, but I still don't understand why some recasts are accepted and some aren't? Surely a recast is a recast? I just wish someone could clear this up. I have worked in the film prop business and know I could do a bang up job if I wanted to and the quality and price would be competitive. This is only a hypothetical discussion. B)^_^

 

I hear you all the way, to me its also a bit crazy.

My armor list is so far:

GF, AP, TE2, TM.

I never understand the line either 100%, what is lawful, and what is not.

The ATA lawful aprovel etc.

 

Again lets keep the topic friendly :)

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I'm friendly all the way....... :P I just wanted to ascertain what is right and what is wrong. There are so many conflicting rules as to who, when, what, why etc are allowed to and accepted to recast. It's a touchy subject and I doubt we'll ever get to the bottom of it. I have just never understood why some are accepted and some aren't. I know that if you recast a studio or screen used item that's your right to do so within the community but I have never understood how people that recast that work seem to be accepted too...........but only sometimes? :wacko:

I am a collector of all SW props and not just TK's so I don't have a huge collection of TK suits. I have been waiting on an old TE suit from the first run( a friend of his had it in the garage for years and never got round to putting it together) as I think it is as close to the real thing as I will ever find, being a first generation cast.

On a different note, I have been chatting to DL via email and he seems very nice and helpful too. Thanks for that! :salute:

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I'm friendly all the way....... :P I just wanted to ascertain what is right and what is wrong. There are so many conflicting rules as to who, when, what, why etc are allowed to and accepted to recast. It's a touchy subject and I doubt we'll ever get to the bottom of it. I have just never understood why some are accepted and some aren't. I know that if you recast a studio or screen used item that's your right to do so within the community but I have never understood how people that recast that work seem to be accepted too...........but only sometimes? :wacko:

I am a collector of all SW props and not just TK's so I don't have a huge collection of TK suits. I have been waiting on an old TE suit from the first run( a friend of his had it in the garage for years and never got round to putting it together) as I think it is as close to the real thing as I will ever find, being a first generation cast.

On a different note, I have been chatting to DL via email and he seems very nice and helpful too. Thanks for that! :salute:

 

Copy that.

Its a jungle out there :wacko: .

 

I have been in contact whit DL since 2007.

He´s working on he´s new ANH TK/TD suit, made from scratch + 3D scan screen used ANH helmet.

I payed him late 2008 for both TK/TD suits, there have been delays.

But last update from DL, is that they shall be done before 2010.

I really hope so, i can´t wait to get them home asap.

Cheers :)

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Let me clarify something here,

The maker of the suit does not matter as far as being accepted into the 501st. Just because someone was accepted with an ATA or a PT or VT kit does not make it a "Lawful" suit to purchase.

 

Recasts are recasts, unless permission is given by the maker*TE AP etc etc etc* that is ripped off it is not ok to do it and should not be ok for you to buy it just because its cheaper.

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Rolf, never apologize for making a post like this, it too often gets lost in pages on pages of reading about topics. Also asking in the way you did encourages people to answer with Why the feel someone is more lawful than someone else, which is a great help in letting people decide to who to or who not to do business with. Just an example for ya:

 

Say someone cast up a screen used set of armor, this suit is beautiful but they are notoriously hard to get because he flakes out and takes money, that guy would be lawful armor wise but unlawful of a business man

 

Someone recasts that suit, but is a great person always responds and ships on time. Are they unlawful?

 

 

Your type of thread asks and helps answer that question.

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It gets kinda complicated, doesn't it? :blink:

 

Also seems like we get the goal-posts moved on us every once in a while. :engel:

What's totally contraband one day is suddenly acceptable the next, with not much offered in the way of explanation, unfortunately.

Gets kinda confusing at times. :unsure:

 

Being that armor molds are ostensibly considered private property, a lot of the agreements and transfers happen behind closed-doors, and the prop-buying public has to play catch up sometimes to figure out who's who and what's what.

 

While some shake-ups in the TK armor world have been more transparent than others, I often end up kind of scratching my head, wondering what the hell just happened. ;)

 

As for my lame $.02-- It seems to me like CAP-West should be regarded no differently than ATA, provided he replaces the TM, Crashmann and TE2 parts, or arrives at deal with those makers.

 

It would be pretty glaringly inconsistent, in my opinion, if ATA got the green-light and CAP-West got labeled as taboo, since they're based off the same kit.

 

All that said -- I think it would be nice for both CAP-West and ATA to make some sort of compensatory gesture towards TE2, being that he's the only maker who's "supposed" to be pulling new armor from the TE source material. I dunno-- maybe such a deal has been struck already, who knows? I know it's not my business, and I'm probably being a bit of a Pollyanna about it, but that would be the fair thing to do, IMHO.

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ATA has replaced the parts necessary or else made arrangements with the source makers.

 

CAP-West has indicated he'll do the same, and my working presumption is that once he has done this, and is thus in the same state as ATA, then he'll also be OK.

 

To be clear 501st approval is maker agnostic - regardless of the origins of the suit - though some GML's may decide to make calls on a 1 by 1 basis.

 

What is "lawful" really means what FISD staff will allow to be sold on these boards. These requirements are based on 501st Legion charter, which is unambiguous in stating that the 501st does not condone recasting.

 

So as long as there is contention by the members of this community we have the obligation to take action and control the list of vendors who we allow to openly sell on our site.

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I think that's very well put, Paul. :duim:

 

 

ATA has replaced the parts necessary or else made arrangements with the source makers.

 

CAP-West has indicated he'll do the same, and my working presumption is that once he has done this, and is thus in the same state as ATA, then he'll also be OK.

 

To be clear 501st approval is maker agnostic - regardless of the origins of the suit - though some GML's may decide to make calls on a 1 by 1 basis.

 

What is "lawful" really means what FISD staff will allow to be sold on these boards. These requirements are based on 501st Legion charter, which is unambiguous in stating that the 501st does not condone recasting.

 

So as long as there is contention by the members of this community we have the obligation to take action and control the list of vendors who we allow to openly sell on our site.

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Rolf, never apologize for making a post like this, it too often gets lost in pages on pages of reading about topics. Also asking in the way you did encourages people to answer with Why the feel someone is more lawful than someone else, which is a great help in letting people decide to who to or who not to do business with. Just an example for ya:

 

Say someone cast up a screen used set of armor, this suit is beautiful but they are notoriously hard to get because he flakes out and takes money, that guy would be lawful armor wise but unlawful of a business man

 

Someone recasts that suit, but is a great person always responds and ships on time. Are they unlawful?

 

 

Your type of thread asks and helps answer that question.

 

Thanks for your positive reply Tom :) .

I was just not sure, how people saw the ATA/CAP/CAP-WEST suits in here.

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WRONG!

 

ATA is still using my knee cap and ab buttons plate. No arrangement has been, nor ever will be made. I have never even been contacted about it.

 

Hmmm - this is not what I've heard. Terrell - can you please clear up this discrepancy?

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WRONG!

 

ATA is still using my knee cap and ab buttons plate. No arrangement has been, nor ever will be made. I have never even been contacted about it.

 

I've never used a TM knee or ab buttons, ever. The ATA ab buttons are scratch built, and the knee is a TE2 cast per an agreement between me and TE2.

 

I've said this before and even posted pictured in another thread.

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surprise surprise its me posting on a thread like this.

 

ok 1st off - there are no 'lawful' suits. Its all illegal.

the approval is approval of the forum or the prop community at large. we should personally CHOOSE not to support recasters. the clone scratch built stuff is more clear cut - as there were no real props to begin with. TK is a whole can of worms. And lets not even go into who THE original suit was got and who has rights of it (I cant follow the multitude of TE vs GINO stories any more - my head hurt too much)

 

"....based on 501st Legion charter, which is unambiguous in stating that the 501st does not condone recasting...." doesnt condone it, but will not police it. ie it states that recasting is bad, but will not take any action against people who do. Its like gettin a guard dog who is unambiguous abt NOT liking strangers and dangerous people, but remove all his teeth and claws and tie him up. Effective.

 

CAP - once he was an outlaw, now he is acceptable. Allegedly recast TE w/o permission, but now appears he DID get permission. Was in a hidden deal before or retrospectively given - who knows now as is so much of TK armour lore.

 

Now this is personal opinion rather than fact. there is nothing the 501 or other members can do abt recasters from a legal point of view - thats a given. But its all about personal judgement of what you think is right or wrong WITHIN this community (lets argue from the point that we all know its all wrong in the 1st place - as its all IP infringement of GL - ie the chief defense of many a recaster). Even teh defination of community is hard - as there is the costuming community, and the prop community.

 

Also - its about respect to makers. No one really has the right to SELL rights to pulling armour. But out of respect to others in the hobby - you ask for permission, and occasionally pay for the right to do it. Not sneaking abt doing behind peoples back or to ask retrospectively.

 

at the end of the day - its all from the same set (ie the TE derived armour). So the principle isnt abt how cheap it is, or how good it looks etc. Its whether you asked the right people for permission I guess.

 

In effect - I have some rules that I play by, that many have no qualms abt NOT playing by - and thats ok. Here is the information as I see it.

 

TE armour - cast of a screen used. but he had loads of problems from a person point of view. Late with delivary, poor communication etc. Did I want one? oh yeah. Would I deal with Matt? Nope - cos of the reputation. If another trooper had one going FS - I would have happily got one.

 

TE2 - my personal choice. Nice armour, nice pulls, good communication. Ask for the rights. Paid for it. stand up guy. All good.

 

AP - got permission from TE to pull armour. again - not quibbling abt the rights and wrongs of where the armour molds came from.

 

CAP - look I got nothing against the guy. chatted to him a few times on email. I really did get what he was saying abt making the armour available. I was tempted, but never took the plunge due to it not sitting well with my personal rules. Fundamentally - from what I heard at the time; he had recast TE w/o permission. As much as TE was unreliable - 2 wrongs dont make a right. So a no-no. They now say all is forgiven. Was it ? Is it? who knows. The story has changed so many times its hard to believe. I choose to believe it was recast w/o permission. So wont buy from CAP. But thats me, people more in the know will think otherwise. The problem I see is that CAP was quite vocal in the fact that he was quite happy for any1 who asked to recast his stuff. In a way - any1 who has CAP armour has now got the right to recast CAPs stuff. I also wouldnt buy from all the CAP derived stuff ie VT CAP-WEST and no doubt a number of new guys who will be popping up now that its open season on CAP armour. But thats all based on my OWN supposition abt what CAP did in the 1st place (just to re-emphasize - it aint FACT as I really was involved in any of the actual conversations)

 

ATA -again nothing against you personally Terrell. You ticked all the boxes, asked for permission from all the right people. So you are detachement accepted. I still think CAP was wrong in the 1st place. Hence - asking CAP for permission to recast his stuff is irrelevant as CAP didnt do it with permission in the 1st place? Or did he? See what I mean? Would I buy ATA stuff? I would love to - he got permission, its reasonably priced, Terell is a good guy, accepted by the detachment. Unfortunately I see it as tainted from the murkiness of CAP in the 1st place. So I dont own ATA armour.

 

PT - probably the most out right BAD recast IMHO. From what I know - which isn't very much I will admit. He recast TE2 stuff. And definately did NOT get Tony's permission? Correct me if I have been mis-informed. I feel this is wrong (wrong in my book anyways) as its just simply rude to a fellow trooper. A fellow trooper who has done all the right things and given back to the community loads of times. But still lots dont to see it that way one these boards and I know he has lots of supporters. tbh - I have given up trying to figure out TK stuff, so PT supporters - pls carry on buying TE2-recast-w/o-permission armour; as nothing I say will ever change that.

 

TM - fan sculpt armour. Gorgeous. Would 1 day like his armour. For full-disclosure, there was some discussion abt TM helmet being not a pure sculpt. Lots of to-and-fros - and in my personal opinion, no definitive proof. So it comes down to opinion - and I choose to believe Paul. Love your work man.

 

RT-MOD - soz dont know enough of this armour to make a useful comment. Wasnt his face plate modded off a TE? someone with more info pls fill in the blanks - thanks

 

ok - its all abt grown man in plastic sheets pretending to be characters from a 70s movie. yes I get that. we often say things like - we are in this together. well ok - then why be rude to one another? recasting someone else's armour w/o permission is just that - rude and disrspectful to one another.

 

if any1 were to ask me what armour would I buy TE2, TM or AP. I currently own 1 TE2 lid, 1 AP lid and 1 TE2 armour.

 

all the other armours - I given up saying right or wrong anymore - as who really knows. I just give out the above information adn my personal opinion.

 

I also would agree that some compensation should be given to TE2 as he did originally pay for the rights to pulling armour.

 

At the end the day boys and girls - its all up to you and what sits well with your own personal right/wrong of it all. Also on what secret information you are privvy to. My last acquisition will be a TM at some point in the future.

 

and remember RECASTERS SUCK!! only problem in TK-world is deciding who recast whom and who got permission (prospectively or retrospectively) from where and..... oh gawd, my head hurts again

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I cant follow the multitude of TE vs GINO stories any more - my head hurt too much

 

 

IF anybody could ever figure this out they better write it the frack down. Make a flow chart out of it or something.

 

 

At this point its hard to say who has what rights to those original mouldings, it makes me wish a screen used 2nd suit would somehow end up out there so we could have a clean slate to start from.

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rofl amen brother

 

I kinda wish there was a MR version for the armor itself. And to hoosie with the asymmetric goodness of screen derived suits.

computer scan 1 half of a screen used suit, clean it up and flip it to get the other side - all that and sell THAT at a reasonable price. Its only asymmertical due to the limits of prop making back then.

 

kinda of a MR CE armour.

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Doug , I couldn't have put it any better. I unfortunately am in a buying deal with TE and had I known in advance how long and drawn out this process was gonna be I don't think I would have bothered. The only thing I did know was this suit I am supposedly getting is where it all started. In hindsight I sshould have gone to either XXXX TE2, Paul TM or waited for the new DL if I had known about it then.

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