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Original film inspiration for Death Star trench attack


airpaint

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I know this isn't new, it's been public since Episode IV came out but I was hunting around the web for info on the new Peter Jackson "Dam Busters" film and I came across this quote from Stephen Fry (scriptwriter for the new film and yes, the Stephen Fry for the UK troopers):

 

“It’s worth knowing that if you say to America ‘Dam Busters’, no-one knows what you’re talking about. It’s only in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain that it’s probably one of the best known films ever made.

 

“Though I think a lot of fans of George Lucas know that he used the final reel, as it were, of Dambusters, almost shot for shot in the attack on the Death Star in the original Star Wars movie. IE The fourth Star Wars movie, if you want to be pedantic about them.

 

“Where they go down into the canyon and release the mine – it’s based on entirely on Dam Busters, and he’s been quite honest about that.”

 

I'd never thought about it before that very few of the US guys will know this classic black and white (1955) war film as the raid didn't involve any US forces. It's a film that crops up at least once a year on TV in the UK and everyone of a certain age knows it and the story of the raid. Allowing for the limitations of the time (clunky model flying sequences and some stuff still on the secret list) it's a pretty faithful account of the Dam Busters raid. The genuine low-level bomber flying sequences are breathtaking on the big screen although not much on TV.

 

So as most troopers do seem to be of a certain age ;) if any of the US guys would like to see the inspiration for the Death Star attack sequence they should try and track this movie down on Amazon or whatever for a few dollars. Even the targeting graphics have their early roots in this film. Nice to remember that it's all true as well. It also happens to be a cracking old war movie too.

 

:o One note of caution, very famously a code word in the film (and life) was the "N-word" and I wouldn't want anyone to be offended. It was taken from the name of the Wingco's faithful black dog and wouldn't have been regarded as pejorative in the UK at the time, simply a reference to black the colour. It would even have been used in the naming of artist's pigments and the like. The US and the UK have very different histories and there was no significant black population here until mass immigration in the 1950s, after the events in this film. In the 1940s in the UK it would not have been a "hate" word and not used as such although unacceptable nowadays now we're a multiracial society. This is not to excuse the word just to explain its affectionate context in the story which would otherwise be a shock to US viewers new to the film. I assume that for the new (2010?) Peter Jackson version they will have to change the codeword as the majority of the cinemagoers (including in the UK) will be young enough (these events took place 65+ years ago) to need the above paragraph of explanation too.

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I didn't realize that. I'm familiar with the dam busting raid from WWII, being a history major and all that. Nice to add that little tidbit to my cornucopia of Star Wars knowledge. Thanks for sharing!

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I remember reading about this as a kid - I'm a big airplane buff and WWII is a wonderful period (thank you Time Life books). It's at the top of my Netflix queue now.

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As there's been a bit of interest I've managed to find an image from a Dambusters flight sim on Google Images, plus a little pic of the X-Wing targeting computer for comparison.

 

med_gallery_3673_184_11181.jpg

 

The top image is the unadulterated (OK, brightened a lot 'cos it was a night scene) flight sim image showing the bomb aimer holding up the improvised bomb site. On the lower image I've put two vertical red lines to show the tabs on the bomb sight that the bomb aimer had to line up on the two towers on the dam wall - highlighted in red.

 

The bombers had to fly straight and level (look at the altimeter reading in the flight sim, these were four engined bombers, roughly B-17 sort of size as reference, that had to be dived down a valley to 60 FEET above a dark lake at night, under heavy fire) towards the dam until the towers on the dam aligned with the tabs on the hand-held bombsight, this was the bomb release point. The long and agonizing wait for the lines to coincide is mirrored in the Death Star sequence, except that the lines on the X-Wing computer slowly converge whereas in the dams raid the towers on the dam slowly seem to diverge as the dam looms closer.

 

I've superimposed the X-Wing computer image as a reminder but you can see where the design first started from (IMO, never seen that bit written as Star Wars gospel).

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Never thought of that, it does look like a TIE. Unfortunately it's a very misleading picture as it's just a flight sim. The circle is a clear plexiglass bubble on the nose of the bomber and the struts project out into it from the fuselage, they're not part of the "window frame" as on the TIE fighters.

 

There's also been mention of 633 Squadron as George's inspiration (RAF Mosquito fighter bombers attacking up a fjord (valley) ) but the Dambusters film looks closer to me, even if loads of films inspired him. 633 Squadron is based on a novel, not a real-life event althought he novel took its inspiration from actual Mosquito operations in its turn.

 

If you get to see the Dambusters, notice how the leaders go around again after releasing their own bombs to draw fire from the (single) bombing aircraft by flying alongside.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just watched this last night and it was much better than I thought. George took more than some of the sequences - he took some dialog straight from the movie. There is a person named "Hutch", plus some of the X/Y-Wing pilot dialog such as (not 100% exact):

 

"How many guns (flak) do you think"

"Some on the surface, some on the towers"

"Going in for my attack run"

"Cut across to try to draw their fire"

Many references to "steady, steady"

 

And, I swear the initial runs of them dropping the bombs - the very idea that it's a pin point attack (too low and it falls short, to high and it skips over the target) is also straight from the film.

 

The more I learn about Star Wars the more I can see how most everything in the movie is lifted from an earlier film (e.g. the droids being akin to the two bumblers from Hidden Fortress, the Seven Samurai, and now Dambusters etc.)

 

Also the guys' wife's haircut has mini Leia buns over her ears - didja notice?

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That's interesting. Where did you find the movie Paul?

 

Netflix. We have cheapy cable ($15/month) so get all our movies from there, including the on demand which is free :)

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i'm kinda hoping that this film ..like so many other re-makes...won't try to re-write history,

 

as long as Peter jackson sticks to the well documented accounts of the raid then his film will not only prove to be entertaining, but will also pay a long overdue tribute to the crews of the eight Lancaster bombers (..53 airmen..) that didn't come back after the raid.

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Well, the movie made in the 50's took some liberties too. Check out the wikipedia article on it and you'll see a host of stuff that just didn't happen:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dam_Busters_(film)

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Glad you found the film and enjoyed it. Everyone might like this link from youtube which I've only just found, it's an amazing piece of editing by a guy with a lot of time on his hands:

 

 

It's called "Dambusters a la Star Wars" if the link doesn't work and you have to search youtube.

 

"Well, the movie made in the 50's took some liberties too. Check out the wikipedia article on it and you'll see a host of stuff that just didn't happen".

 

That's a bit strong, even the Wiki says it's a only few minor points :) In actual fact, Barnes Wallis DID in effect design the Wellington, he wasn't just another minor draughtsman working as part of a team. He actually invented a new method of aircraft construction based on geodesic principles which is the main thing that distinguished the Wellington bomber from its contemporaries. It was used by the company for a previous (not a famous type) aircraft and was successful enough for the chief designer to choose it for the Wellington's construction. It could take a lot of punishment from flak, etc which is what the Wellington became famous for early in the war.

 

The theatre spotlights is the only completely fictional bit to add to the storyline. The only real "liberty" taken ;) The altimeter wasn't Gibson's idea, it was invented by someone on 617's ground crew. The drama of it's late and critical invention as a solution to the problem of flying at 60 feet over water at night is all true and accurate though.

 

Most of 617's crews were directly picked by Gibson and his staff as his job was to create the squadron for the raid from scratch. They requested aircrew they knew directly through operations and then picked others from lists based on operational experience. It caused a lot of bad feeling amongst other squadrons as he cherry-picked the best crews which they were understandably unwilling to part with. 617 Squadron continued to exist after the Dams raid and things will have been different then.

 

The idea of the home-made bombsight, which is the important bit in life and the film, was identical, lining up on the towers, however it was implemented by the crews. I'm pretty sure most of them used the method shown though.

 

I'm completely confused by the bit about bureaucracy, as far as I know this problem was actually played down in the film and was more of a problem than shown. I think in the new film, now all the Air Ministry bureaucrats involved are dead they will go into this in more detail and make it a bigger problem, not smaller.

 

It was Wallis's personal idea to go for the dams, they had been identified as potential targets previously (as was just about anything industrial in Germany) but dismissed as not important enough to justify the enormous (basically impossible at the time) problems of destroying them. Wallis was obsessed with the huge effect he thought the attack would have on a wide range of German industry, just as shown in the film. No one else was interested at the time, hence the struggles for funding.

 

The technical inaccuracies about the bomb are obvious only to an expert. The training drops simply used existing test footage as the special effects budget in the 50s didn't stretch to either full-size or working model drops. The most obvious things are the rounder shape of the bombs in the film, the bouncing is identical. The real bombs are actually a simple cylinder, like a tin of beans, and sat smaller beneath the aircraft than the huge round bulges in the film but the mounting method (externally, no room for bomb doors) was correct. Can't remember if they showed the spinning method in the film (long time since I've seen it), maybe still secret. Basically an electric motor was used to spin up the bombs along the long axis of the cylinder via a drive belt. This kept the bombs stable in the bouncing phase after release.

 

Never heard that about the car's occupants being injured, (it's probably true, I've just never heard it before), I thought the general opinion was that it was deliberately killed by disgruntled station crew at Scampton as Gibson and his dog were not as popular as shown. He was evidently a very, very strict disciplinarian and ruffled a lot of feathers. Not "one of the boys" in his command style. Hugely popular public figure though. If you're interested, he wrote a book called "Enemy Coast Ahead" about his RAF service. Bit bland as it was written mid-war when all his raids and aircraft were too secret to be described. There's also no sense of the danger and terror of the bomber crews' job, partly 'cos he was so exceptional and partly 'cos it had to be read as exciting propaganda to aid future RAF recruitment at a time when victory was a long way in the future and by no means certain. The book is very poignant as the first several pages are simply lists of aircrew members he had known personally who were killed or missing, added to this is the knowledge that Gibson was killed on operations after writing the book, he didn't survive the war although he survived the Dams raid.

 

I live not far from RAF Scampton where the Dambusters flew from, also near RAF Hemswell where the film was made, hence my massively nerdy interest :D

 

I think the previous poster (Langy) was more worried about recent films like (ahem!) the capture of the Enigma code machines which was totally fictional and completely preposterous. I guess we're all hoping for "Band of Brothers" realism and attention to detail in the new film. Thinking of Band of Brothers, did you notice on the Wiki that the actor who plays Guy Gibson was actually a paratrooper involved in the first action on D-Day? Cool, huh?

 

Finally, Daetrin I'm really impressed by you picking out all that similar dialogue, I don't have fresh enough memories of either film to have spotted that. I will be watching for it next time I see either. I put up this Dambusters topic and I'm learning new Star Wars stuff already! Thanks!

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OK, total self-indulgence here :D I'm pretty sure any old bloke that likes to watch technical science-fiction and dress up as a Stormtrooper will get a big kick out of this.

 

Nothing to do with Star Wars as such but if you want to know what a Lancaster bomber looks like, check out this great vid of the 65th Dambusters anniversary when the RAF flew their last Lancaster across the dam used in the film and for the dams raid training during the war. This was taken in 2008 but not by me as I sadly couldn't get there and I'm still gutted:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m1OuyIe0pig

 

I know it's daylight and it's not 60 feet but considering how gently they have to handle this old bird (only one other flying to my knowledge, in Canada) I think the flight up the valley behind the trees is stunningly captured here.

 

Notice how messy and rubbish the current RAF Tornadoes are compared to the Lanc. Yes, I know you in the US have all the coolest planes nowadays B)

 

Trust you noticed the inaccurate bomb-doors and mid-upper turret Daetrin, at least the film got that right :P;)

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I think the previous poster (Langy) was more worried about recent films like (ahem!) the capture of the Enigma code machines which was totally fictional and completely preposterous.

 

 

Dont forget Pearl Harbour. ;)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_(film)

 

My mother was lucky enough to know one of the Dam Busters when she was a girl back in the 50's/60's. He wound up a prison officer living on the Isle of Wight. I remember her telling me a bit about some of the tales he told her.

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did you notice on the Wiki that the actor who plays Guy Gibson was actually a paratrooper involved in the first action on D-Day? Cool, huh?

 

Richard Todd (aka WingCo Guy Gibson in the film) also starred in the film The Longest Day... He plyed the role of his own commanding officer (Major Howard) on the Pegasus Bridge attack... and by all accounts actually calls his own name...

 

Sorry, off track...

 

We now return you to your scheduled programming...

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