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Bullseye

Kidney Plate shimming - Help Needed

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Keep an eye on your ab and kindey alignment, they should sit pretty straight on the sides ][  you don't want them on an angle.

 

You may also want to try how the gap is with the belt around tightly, it can make a difference on the width of your shims you may need.

 

Looking good so far, same place my snaps are on ab and chest. 

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On 8/20/2019 at 6:30 AM, Bullseye said:

I’ve made a bunch of progress on my TK the last few months and I’m getting to the point where I need to make a costume made for someone who is 5’10” and trim, fit someone who is 6’4” with a bit *ahem* of a gut.  Specifically the back and kidney plate. 

 

I mocked up the ab plate and the butt and kidney plates with painters tape and got the following photos. 

86Od92h.jpg

 

ItXJVZT.jpg

 

measuring, the gap between the ab and kidney plates was roughly 5-5 1/2 inches.  This means  I’ll have to shim the kidney plate. 

 

MoScOut’s WTF build has been helpful and had this great diagram of what constitutes a proper shimming for the kidneys. 

 

 

f36ae0a04f07ae020bbbca8fd639fcf9.jpg

 

While this will ultimately be helpful, I’m not sure how best to start on the shimming.

 

1) Should I connect the back and chest plates in order to properly hang these down in order to gauge the shim off of the completed chest/back rig?

 

2) should I simply line up the kidney and ab plates and measure from there?

 

 Critically

 

3) how should I go about shimming this?

 

My plan is to make sure I have a flat surface at the ends of the kidney plate and then put an interior cover strip on the kidney plate to secure the shim. Next, mock up the kidney and abs again and use my spare ABS plates to gauge and mark how much shim I need. After that mark and cut the necessary shim. Then mix up a batch of abs paste and get to work (not to over do it, of course), the sand and polish. 

 

Are there any any pitfalls I should be aware of? Easy things I’m missing? Is there a proper way to line the ab and kidneys up?

 

thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Dave

I looked over your build and noticed you are using an incorrect diagram. We really need to track down the origin and delete it.

It should be like this:

Chbq2Gn.jpg

 

 

And including a reference form a screen used suit.

WWxZxMf.jpg?1

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3 hours ago, TheSwede said:

Hi Dave

I looked over your build and noticed you are using an incorrect diagram. We really need to track down the origin and delete it.

It should be like this:

Chbq2Gn.jpg

 

 

And including a reference form a screen used suit.

WWxZxMf.jpg?1

Thanks. Sigh. Oh well. Since I’m already shimming it, it’s just a little more paste and e6000.  Appreciate you pointing that out and letting me know before I started sanding. At least the additional bottom shim isn’t going to be load bearing. 

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7 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Keep an eye on your ab and kindey alignment, they should sit pretty straight on the sides ][  you don't want them on an angle.

 

You may also want to try how the gap is with the belt around tightly, it can make a difference on the width of your shims you may need.

Wasn't sure about that.  I trimmed as they met the plate.  I'll trim the shim to be a straight edge.  I had extra space in there anyway. Appreciate you pointing that out. 

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Repairs waiting to be set. 

 

I used the excess from my shim trimming to make bottom shims to fill in the bottom kidney plate notch I’d mistakenly left out. After trimming off the ragged edges I left the new notch shim a little long than the kidney plate at the bottom so I could trim it later (no sense in cutting until I’m sure I’ve got it right). Next I prepared backing plates for the notch shims like the one below.  

KEpHhFS.jpg

 

next I placed and clamped the notch shim and the plate in place

GBr7xGt.jpg

 

 also using a small clamp at the top to help the shim keep its shape. 

Gd8rM5Q.jpg

 

Then I got greedy and started reaching for the abs paste

bZuAp1H.jpg

 

And I filled in most of the gap to help secure the shim. 

wiNWguW.jpg

 

tomorrow I’m going to put in two small back side backers on each side to allow for freedom of movement. I’ll fill in the last of the abs paste tomorrow too. Once that sets I’m going to do the measurement for my belt. 

 

 

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With rivet time coming up I wanted to confirm the distances for the rivet placement.

 

I understand that on the LEFT SIDE the holes should be 10mm in from the edge of the LEFT Ab and the LEFT Kidney.  I also understand that the top hole on the ab and kidney should be 20mm down from the top edge, the bottom hole should be 10-15mm up from the bottom edge of the Kidney and the ab edge (not the crotch), and the middle hole equidistant between the top and bottom rivet holes. 

 

Thanks in advance for confirming. 

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4 hours ago, Bullseye said:

With rivet time coming up I wanted to confirm the distances for the rivet placement.

 

I understand that on the LEFT SIDE the holes should be 10mm in from the edge of the LEFT Ab and the LEFT Kidney.  I also understand that the top hole on the ab and kidney should be 20mm down from the top edge, the bottom hole should be 10-15mm up from the bottom edge of the Kidney and the ab edge (not the crotch), and the middle hole equidistant between the top and bottom rivet holes. 

 

Thanks in advance for confirming. 

 

Yes, and set the abdominal rivets first and then match the kidney

 

cheers

 

tJkuLGJSKvNrN-FqZQ1EkzHsVoQ9rbklkB1U52Yn

Edited by TKSpartan
word correction
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Progress continues. 

 

Given some free time last night I set to the internal rigging of the armor. My goal is to complete the rigging of both the back and front so that I can properly measure the sides for their final cuts, split rivets and rigging. 

 

Using a tailor’s tape measure and my metal ruler I tried to keep everything in line. And charted on the armor how long each strap would need to be. 

 

By the way, Snap setting is miserable work, as is gluing them in place. Just wanted to get that out there in the ether. That said, the progress was palpable. 

 

pCALC4K.jpg

 

I’d previously set a bunch of double snaps in nylon, so I used E6000 and painters tape to secure them in my pre measured and pre marked spots. The photo below was meant as an example. I actually took the top end of the tape off, so that I could accurately gauge the spot mark for the strip. Having the tape on the sides and base was key. It allowed me to set the snap in place immediately and secure it there once I liked the spot. I didn’t have to go fumbling for tape or reset the thing if it moved while I was fumbling around. After it was in place with the sides and base taped down, I put the top tape strip on and a narrow strip down the middle for pressure on the center of the strip and adhesion. 

 

lW5uEnl.jpg

 

I’d set the front snaps for the ab and chest earlier.  I'm not as happy with this, but I can always re-do it later as necessary.  

bfXkmfR.jpg

 

The photo make this look a little off kilter, but everything is even.

 

With my split rivets on the way, I’m going to cut, put in the snap caps, and cure the strapping tonight. The only thing after that is to do the shoulders, and then I’ll be able to better judge the kidney shims and finalize the trimming. 

 

As as a practical matter, is it better to do a single snap or double snap for the shoulders? Also, is it better to glue down the back plate end of the shoulder fabric to the back plate or to use poppers/snaps?

 

Single snap would seem to give more freedom of motion for the strap and allow the armor to sit flush on the shoulders. That said, it’s not going to be as strong as a double snap which would allow more support and put less stress on a single point. This would be the same for gluing it down directly to the armor (back plate only). Downside would be that you’re locked in to how the strap sits. Just trying to get my plan of attack on place. 

 

Thanks again everyone. 

Edited by Bullseye

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13 minutes ago, Bullseye said:

By the way, Snap setting is miserable work, as is gluing them in place. Just wanted to get that out there in the ether. That said, the progress was palpable. 

 

As as a practical matter, is it better to do a single snap or double snap for the shoulders? Also, is it better to glue down the back plate end of the shoulder fabric to the back plate or to use poppers/snaps?

THANK YOU! I sell strapping kits when the mood strikes me and they're not cheappp at $100, but if you really wanna set 60+ snaps by hand and sew in the shoulder snaps by hand, good luck and have fun I tell people! hahaha

 

I do double snaps at any important body connections and single snaps on the arms, but that's just me. I integrated the little Centurion elastic hold down into the back of my elastic shoulder straps and it works great and they never shift or get lost.

 

Only other suggestion would be to move the male snaps in the chest up a bit to the bottom of the "pec" and use a slightly longer set of straps than the rest of your body connections. The reason I do this is it allows the ab to slide up and under the chest more, which gives you more range of motion when bending forward. 

 

Food for thought. I like strapping haha

 

Image may contain: phone

Edited by TheRascalKing
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17 minutes ago, TheRascalKing said:

I do double snaps at any important body connections and single snaps on the arms, but that's just me. I integrated the little Centurion elastic hold down into the back of my elastic shoulder straps and it works great and they never shift or get lost.

Thanks Justin.  My initial thought was double snaps, but I started second guessing.  I'm going to set the back plate snaps in place tonight (along with the integrated elastic loop).  Looking at the photos you posted, I think I got the idea from one of your earlier posts on the forum.  So thanks!!

 

A question on the length of the strap.  I've been referencing Tony's AM build for the shoulder strapping.  He has the distance between the back and shoulder as set forth in the photo below:

IMG_0985d.jpg

 

I wasn't sure if the 80mm gap was what I should be shooting for or if there's a limit to how far I can stretch the distance between back and chest.  I know the Bridge needs to be able to reach the back and free float.  The bridge here is the big bump plus two bumps before the edge of the chest.  I understood three bumps to be the minimum.  Obviously, that extra bump is a few extra millimeters I can work with and use (as a bigger trooper), and the impacts the length of the strapping underneath.  

 

As you've got pre set strapping kits, I want to know if you based that should gap on a set figure.

 

Quote

Only other suggestion would be to move the male snaps in the chest up a bit to the bottom of the "pec" and use a slightly longer set of straps than the rest of your body connections. The reason I do this is it allows the ab to slide up and under the chest more, which gives you more range of motion when bending forward. 

Thanks for this suggestion also.  I think I'm going to reset the pec snaps as you indicated.  When I put them on I didn't understand the rational on the Billgrams and other examples for having them so high.  Now I know.  Again, really really appreciate your thoughts on all this. 

 

Additionally, shout outs to Mario, Dan, Q, AJ, Darren, Tony, and everyone else for their help.  Y'all are amazing!

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1 hour ago, Bullseye said:

Thanks Justin.  My initial thought was double snaps, but I started second guessing.  I'm going to set the back plate snaps in place tonight (along with the integrated elastic loop).  Looking at the photos you posted, I think I got the idea from one of your earlier posts on the forum.  So thanks!!

 

I wasn't sure if the 80mm gap was what I should be shooting for or if there's a limit to how far I can stretch the distance between back and chest.  I know the Bridge needs to be able to reach the back and free float.  The bridge here is the big bump plus two bumps before the edge of the chest.  I understood three bumps to be the minimum.  Obviously, that extra bump is a few extra millimeters I can work with and use (as a bigger trooper), and the impacts the length of the strapping underneath.  

 

As you've got pre set strapping kits, I want to know if you based that should gap on a set figure.

 

Thanks for this suggestion also.  I think I'm going to reset the pec snaps as you indicated.  When I put them on I didn't understand the rational on the Billgrams and other examples for having them so high.  Now I know.  Again, really really appreciate your thoughts on all this. 

No worries! I like the added security of two snaps, and on 2" elastic, the spacing kinda just makes more sense. Some guys run one, and if you're using good quality snaps and setters, you should be fine, but I prefer two. I based my strapping design largely on the Billhag diagrams, with some slight tweaks. No reason to reinvent the wheel. The integrated elastic I hadn't seen done before, but I think it makes a lot of sense and it works really well. I disconnect my straps at the front and leave the backs connected with the elastic staying at the top of the back panel. 

 

The only limiting factor is really the length of the shoulder bridges, I would say. You can run as long of an elastic strap as you need, as long as it looks natural - I'm not aware of any offical standard. When I very first made a strap kit, I based the measurements on the stock Anovos velcro strapping I had laying around, but fine tuned it over time. I usually intend for there to be about 2-3" of visible elastic. My kits are made to be "one-size-fits-most", but where you glue in the male tabs leaves a lot of room for adjustment. I have made custom straps for bigger dudes tho, no big deal.

 

Three bumps is probably the minimum just to get good adhesion when you glue em on and the strap should touch and lay on the back panel - so that's about what you have to work with. You can trim the lengths of the tops of the chest and back armor itself to help fine tune as well.

 

Again, happy to help! There's a ton of stuff that I've picked up over time from trial and error, other troopers, and the forums. Least I can do is share. Post up if you have any other questions and we'll try to help!

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1 hour ago, TheRascalKing said:

Again, happy to help! There's a ton of stuff that I've picked up over time from trial and error, other troopers, and the forums. Least I can do is share. Post up if you have any other questions and we'll try to help!

Thanks again Justin! I'll be working on this tonight.

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Progress over the weekend. 

 

Using the advice everyone was kind as kind enough to post I got to work preparing the internal straps for the armor rigging. I had my missteps. My original measurements were too short, so I ended up with the butt and kidney mashed together. Regrouping, I remeasured and made a second set of straps.  

 

U0L95ZI.jpg

 

This is goes back to my rant on snaps. They have to be just right or they won’t work. Spit the post to far, it will jam in the snap rung, do t do it enough it won’t hold. I’m glad I got the 100 pack because it seems like I’ll use all of them before this is over. 

 

Needing to begin the shoulders I cut four 2” x 1” snap “plates” and set in the snaps. 

 

DZ0GgFy.jpg

 

Measuring two seven inch 2” wide strips of white elastic, I folded the edge over by an inch, glued it down, soldered the holes with my jig, and set in the snaps. They’re ready to be measured once the rest of the rigging is done. I intentionally cut them long and left them unfinished.  Once I do a painters tape dry fitting, I'll be able to get the distance correct, overlap the elastic on the chest snaps, punch a guide hole in the elastic into the snap, then burn the hole with a soldering iron, overlay the extra, cut, seal, and snap in the female aspects.  

 

UG7JvZK.jpg

 

Same process for the back straps. 

 

XKnV2P3.jpg

 

The result:

iJe42y4.jpg

 

There's a little more gap than I’d like, but I’ll see how it fits before I worry about re-strapping it. As discussed Friday, I decided that it made more sense to move the pec chest snaps up from the original position I placed them at.  I made new snap plates for the new position, and I was over zealous with the hammer. As a result the snaps wouldn’t connect. It took me an hour to figure out why. I’d “over split” the snap posts on the male and female aspects. As a result, they wouldn't connect. I redid them and finally got everything to snap together. 

 

nzuusiU.jpg

 

The chest:

zfxQRUw.jpg

 

All in all, I’m happy with the progress. One thing that made life easier was to due the straps one end at a time; meaning I’d fold and snap set one end and leave the other long and unfinished. Snapping the finished end into the set snaps and letting the unfinished end drape over the bottom snaps. I’d mark the snap position with a silver sharpie and then used the soldering iron and my jig to burn the holes where I’d marked them. Then glue, set and snap. Another thing that helped, breaking in the snaps first. After setting the female snaps I set and unset the a half dozen times in one of the male snap plates I’d pulled off. Made a world of difference. 

 

Next step is to measure and set the shoulders. Hopefully, that shouldn’t be to rough given what I’ve learned to date. Once my split rivets arrive, I’ll tend to the ab and kidney shim. 

 

The next headache is the arm strapping. Are there required lengths for the straps or required gaps for the space between the armor?  I’ve got 37” arms, so I want to be sure of how much of a gap I can have between the bottom of the bicep and the top of the forearm. 

Edited by Bullseye
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Hi Dave, assembling the arms was a headache for me too  :D, but nothing imposible. About the gap , as ageneral rule more white is better, try to leave the less gap. Here are a couple of reference photos you can see and a straping diagram.  Hope this can helpe you.

 

 

uT16Hh8ey9z1SUIejgEuWx2npYgm18i_JdksIX9d

 

SvDO3AyKnUdFbY9wxYxUd6dozL-vslsfYDpERUiz

 

y1IrmMPVAlWrq_2YKwvHrUnpUaViQpmtPL7w0ukK

 

hwtzu33mZCHoDWeZIRdsztSpsOLXPnBzm08c1HSw

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21 minutes ago, TKSpartan said:

as a general rule more white is better, try to leave the less gap. Here are a couple of reference photos you can see and a strapping diagram.  Hope this can help you.

Thanks.  I was looking at Tony's build and I wasn't sure if there were required lengths of strapping.  I'll test fit the forearms, biceps, and bells tonight and use painters tap to mark distances.  Single snaps this time for the arms!

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More progress. 

 

With limited time last night I initially thought I’d just cut and prepare my snap plates for the arms. After cutting 10 1”x1” plates, burning the edges, and setting the snaps, I realized I had a little more time than I thought. 

 

I grabbed my my left shoulder bell, bicep, and forearm and tried to do some rough measurements. I can get the distance between 1 1/2” to 2” comfortably.  Not sure if that’s okay or not. 

fT0nCtf.jpg

 

One thing that stood out was that the bell wasn’t really fitting over the bicep. Part of that is me needing to hot water bathe and reshape the bicep from an oval to a circle. Another part is the return edge. (See above). Should I take that edge down further to maybe 2-3mm?

 

While trying to properly measure the complete arm I realized the until I knew where the bell was going to sit, my measurements were going to be off. So I took a final look at Tony’s AM build shoulder section and put the front and back of the armor on the work bench. 

 

Grabbing my ruler, a pencil, and the back plate with the should strap attached, I measured three inches on the white elastic and marked it. Next using painters tape, I wrapped the elastic at the 3” mark,  and then using that marking attached the back plate to the front with more painters tape at the marking. 3”. I’m pretty happy with the result. 

zOVtmG2.jpg

eeVzRIM.jpg

opaUrbg.jpg

m079FhL.jpg

 

Obviously I need to sand, trim and create the top return edge for the shims, but the fact that everything is lining up is pretty exciting. One thing that’s coming up is my kidney shim is legit, unbent 2mm abs. As such, it’s stronger and less willing to bend than the rest of the suit. Any suggestions on safe ways to bend the shim inward toward the ab plate would be appreciated. 

 

To to keep things simple and moving along, like going to use snaps for the shoulder bell connectors to the shoulder elastic. My understanding is that using snaps there won’t effect EIB or Centurion approval. It’s just a personal preference for canon accuracy. 

 

I still need to mock up the shoulder bridges at this length, so I’m hoping this fits the length of the bridge.  

 

Once the shoulder straps and bridges are confirmed in their final positions, I’ll do the setting and snapping along with the center snap for the shoulder bells. Once those are in place I’ll be able the gauge how much length I can squeeze out of the bell/bicep overlap. 

 

Getting close!

Edited by Bullseye
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22 minutes ago, Bullseye said:

One thing that stood out was that the bell wasn’t really fitting over the bicep. Part of that is me needing to hot water bathe and reshape the bicep from an oval to a circle. Another part is the return edge. (See above). Should I take that edge down further to maybe 2-3mm?

Hi Dave, you can remove all return edge from the shoulder bell, this will give you more room and a better fit with the biceps. here's a reference.

 

cheers

 

eBbnrjmHorZdvXs9x7flZ97DsosKY6jzKoKGZf8f

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, TKSpartan said:

you can remove all return edge from the shoulder bell, this will give you more room and a better fit with the biceps. here's a reference.

Excellent. I was hoping that was the case. 

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