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Early 2019 CRL update change requests

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Dan (CableGuy)- because this thread is so long and ranging from a wide range of topics, with no end in site, what if you just posted a survey to take all of our votes on the various items you and the rest of Command staff are looking at possibly changing on the CRL?

So for example:
1) Brow Height: Change the language for Centurion to state “Brow height must be 5mm above lenses”

Yes. No

2) Tube stripes:

Yes No

3) Ear Angle: Centurion language shall state “Ear angle shall be blah blah blah”

Get what I’m saying? I feel like this thread is going to be longer than all the intros to every Star Wars film. I’m thinking you just put all the proposed CRL changes to a vote to Command Staff and attachés and call it a day.


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Quick make a spreadsheet or something!


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10 minutes ago, Bud Spaklur said:

Maybe we just take it down and start a new one then that are posts of all of OUR worst Star Wars costumes? Us poking fun at ourselves?

:duim:

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55 minutes ago, justjoseph63 said:

Every one of the items I suggested (as changed in the updated list) pertain only to level 3, and not unrealistic to achieve (with the exception of the "ideal" ears and shoulder bridges/bells in some cases). 

I think you have your answer right there, not unrealist to achieve (with the exception of the "ideal" ears and shoulder bridges/bells in some cases). 

 

If there is an exception and may be too hard for some to achieve due to either size, shape, armor or experience then shouldn’t these be worded as preferred/ideally/suggested.

 

Really easy for us to debate what’s easy for someone to achieve when we have already reached higher ;) 

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Dan (CableGuy)- because this thread is so long and ranging from a wide range of topics, with no end in site, what if you just posted a survey to take all of our votes on the various items you and the rest of Command staff are looking at possibly changing on the CRL?

So for example:
1) Brow Height: Change the language for Centurion to state “Brow height must be 5mm above lenses”

Yes. No

2) Tube stripes:

Yes No

3) Ear Angle: Centurion language shall state “Ear angle shall be blah blah blah”

Get what I’m saying? I feel like this thread is going to be longer than all the intros to every Star Wars film. I’m thinking you just put all the proposed CRL changes to a vote to Command Staff and attachés and call it a day.


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I get what you’re saying, however, we still seem to have a huge misunderstanding about this. I’ve mentioned quite a few times that there should be NO exact brow height. The reference material shows that the majority of the stunt TKs seen in ANH had “a gap” between the eyes and the brow. If we point people to the reference material when they start there build, this should be quite obviously a defining characteristic of the Stunt.

At this stage, the measurements argument keeps coming up which is clouding the issue. :-(

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I think if you want to change it for L3 it’s fine I just think you should stay away from exact measurements on anything and take into consideration body types when establishing “gaps”



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I think if you want to change it for L3 it’s fine I just think you should stay away from exact measurements on anything and take into consideration body types when establishing “gaps”



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Change what? There are so many suggestions on the cards, I’m unsure which of them you mean. :-)

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I get what you’re saying, however, we still seem to have a huge misunderstanding about this. I’ve mentioned quite a few times that there should be NO exact brow height. The reference material shows that the majority of the stunt TKs seen in ANH had “a gap” between the eyes and the brow. If we point people to the reference material when they start there build, this should be quite obviously a defining characteristic of the Stunt.

At this stage, the measurements argument keeps coming up which is clouding the issue. :-(


That was just an example. To be honest, I really don’t have any issues with the CRL the way it is. I was just suggesting you should put the proposed changes you want to make up to a vote or something. When you have this many people chiming in, including myself, it gets to be too much. I think if you put the proposed changes to a vote and leave space for each item to allow us to state our opinions individually, it would be more orderly. Then you and the rest of command just take the info and make the decisions.


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21 minutes ago, gmrhodes13 said:

....shouldn’t these be worded as preferred/ideally/suggested.

:jc_doublethumbup:

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Change what? There are so many suggestions on the cards, I’m unsure which of them you mean. :-)


Whatever the hell the want? Doesn’t affect me at all. I think it’s ridiculous but I’m not as crazy into it as everyone else. My costume sucks, well not sucks but there are a few things I don’t like, but it’s mine, I built it and I did it myself therefore I love it. I don’t see a need for any levels higher then basic. If you want to be exact join and prop club or something of that nature. This whole thing is driving me to drink (more). I joined here knowing nothing and I learned quite a bit. I did my armor my way, no snaps cause I don’t like snaps, it’s velcro. I stuck around to be a friendly hello when people joined. Everyone likes a happy place. I was approached about the attaché program and figured it was a good way to help people and show them they can do whatever they want with their costume, there are a few ways to accomplish the same task. I’ve been an attaché for less the a year but the way things are going really brings me down sometimes. I don’t agree with a few things including the idea of submitting my armor to peers for approval. I get we have to do it for basic that’s someone that has guidelines and other people’s interest in mind when approving. It’s just my opinion and not directed at anyone just my thoughts. There is a huge emphasis on getting a higher level. I don’t see why, again that’s me. I joined to troop and meet some like minded people. I’ve accomplished that and plan on doing it for many more years. I just know when things get worded a certain way people get discouraged. Yea centurion may be super easy for some people as it is but not for others. And why does it have to be difficult?

Ramble,ramble,ramble and I’m done for now.


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5 minutes ago, Frank75139 said:

 


Whatever the hell the want? Doesn’t affect me at all. I think it’s ridiculous but I’m not as crazy into it as everyone else. My costume sucks, well not sucks but there are a few things I don’t like, but it’s mine, I built it and I did it myself therefore I love it. I don’t see a need for any levels higher then basic. If you want to be exact join and prop club or something of that nature. This whole thing is driving me to drink (more). I joined here knowing nothing and I learned quite a bit. I did my armor my way, no snaps cause I don’t like snaps, it’s velcro. I stuck around to be a friendly hello when people joined. Everyone likes a happy place. I was approached about the attaché program and figured it was a good way to help people and show them they can do whatever they want with their costume, there are a few ways to accomplish the same task. I’ve been an attaché for less the a year but the way things are going really brings me down sometimes. I don’t agree with a few things including the idea of submitting my armor to peers for approval. I get we have to do it for basic that’s someone that has guidelines and other people’s interest in mind when approving. It’s just my opinion and not directed at anyone just my thoughts. There is a huge emphasis on getting a higher level. I don’t see why, again that’s me. I joined to troop and meet some like minded people. I’ve accomplished that and plan on doing it for many more years. I just know when things get worded a certain way people get discouraged. Yea centurion may be super easy for some people as it is but not for others. And why does it have to be difficult?

Ramble,ramble,ramble and I’m done for now.


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Hi Frank,

 

It's not ramble, ramble, Frank - it's your valid opinion.:duim:

 

I understand what you're saying, and that is the beauty of basic. Nobody is forced to submit their armour for approval from their peers. Nobody is forced to aim for, or submit for, EIB and Centurion. And, from what I have seen across the forum builds, nobody is pressured or bullied into going beyond their skill set. Joining the FISD is totally optional. And for those that share your view that they don't see the need for higher levels, this really shouldn't affect them in any way.  

The Attache team and other experienced builders give constructive suggestions and advice when required. The majority of our regular helpers on FISD have a good manner with new and old members and any untoward responses or attitudes are reported.

If a new builder starts a WIP and their first comment is "I'm starting my build and aiming for Centurion", as many of them do these days, I can't see any issue with helping them achieve that from day one. It is much easier to aim for Centurion from day one, with the help of the years of build experience on the forum, than it is to aim for basic, then have to make retrospective changes down the line if they choose to move to EIB and Centurion. 

 

"Yea centurion may be super easy for some people as it is but not for others. And why does it have to be difficult?" I don't believe it's super easy for anyone, well, especially not on their first armour build. It requires research, time and effort, and in some cases a few extra £/$ on certain bits of hardware. However, it is made available to those that DO want to aim higher. Basic allows a more straight forward path to trooping, and nobody has a problem with that. 

 

"There is a huge emphasis on getting a higher level. I don’t see why, again that’s me. I joined to troop and meet some like minded people." Surely the reason that many people start a WIP thread is to get feedback or support from the community. I know I certainly did. I did my research but also valued the constructive feedback from more experienced troopers. If they don't want to take the advice, that's okay.

I also joined to troop, make money for charity, make people smile, and to live out my life-long dream of building and BEING a Stormtrooper. I could have achieved these goals with basic clearance, but choose to take my armour I high as I could. This doesn't make me any better at raising money, bringing smiles or living out my dream, it was just something that I wanted to do and worked hard to achieve. 

 

Basic clearance is not really being challenged here. Bringing awareness of what CAN be achieved, if a member wants to achieve it, is at the heart of these suggestions. 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dan

 

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Like I said doesn’t affect me so I’m fine. I’ll help anyone do whatever they want and answer any questions I know the answers to. I just know if I were to get on and see centurion requirements being tube stripes had to be a certain mm distance, I’d be like eh forget that. But again that’s me


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Like I said doesn’t affect me so I’m fine. I’ll help anyone do whatever they want and answer any questions I know the answers to. I just know if I were to get on and see centurion requirements being tube stripes had to be a certain mm distance, I’d be like eh forget that. But again that’s me


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There have been specific requirements for L3 for some time, many of which are much more ‘replica’ oriented than some of the things being discussed here. Such as the side rivets on the ab/kidney;

CRL Optional L3;
Three rivets, approximately 5/16"(8mm) diameter, are present on the left side of the abdomen armor.
Note: The original rivets used for the TK armor were bifurcated rivets or split rivets.

This is just one example, however the optional L3 requirements have always been quite involved. This would have been present when you joined. This didn’t put you off and your now doing what you wanted to achieve.

All I’m saying is, having realistic targets, based on the original suits, for those that want to aim and strive for the optional L3 should not put off people that want to achieve basic.

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There have been specific requirements for L3 for some time, many of which are much more ‘replica’ oriented than some of the things being discussed here. Such as the side rivets on the ab/kidney;

CRL Optional L3;
Three rivets, approximately 5/16"(8mm) diameter, are present on the left side of the abdomen armor.
Note: The original rivets used for the TK armor were bifurcated rivets or split rivets.

This is just one example, however the optional L3 requirements have always been quite involved. This would have been present when you joined. This didn’t put you off and your now doing what you wanted to achieve.

All I’m saying is, having realistic targets, based on the original suits, for those that want to aim and strive for the optional L3 should not put off people that want to achieve basic.



They were present and I’ve gone through and watched quite a few applications where people have passed with glaring mistakes and others have been kicked back to fix things.
I’m also not arguing that they will put off people. I’m just giving my opinion that it would put of me and I find it hard to believe I’m the only person in the world with these feelings.
And who comes up with these “realistic targets” for armor? I don’t think anyone in this forum was involved with original builds. All we have are screen shots and pics of one or two actual used suits. If you want it to be exact let’s call in help from someone that built this stuff so we don’t have the same few people putting their opinions in on what they feel is accurate cause they are looking at a pic. Correct me if I’m wrong cause I am new and don’t know what went on prior to joining maybe this was already done. Can anyone call themselves a TK expert? Most experts gets lots of training.


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19 minutes ago, Frank75139 said:

 

 


They were present and I’ve gone through and watched quite a few applications where people have passed with glaring mistakes and others have been kicked back to fix things.
I’m also not arguing that they will put off people. I’m just giving my opinion that it would put of me and I find it hard to believe I’m the only person in the world with these feelings.
And who comes up with these “realistic targets” for armor? I don’t think anyone in this forum was involved with original builds. All we have are screen shots and pics of one or two actual used suits. If you want it to be exact let’s call in help from someone that built this stuff so we don’t have the same few people putting their opinions in on what they feel is accurate cause they are looking at a pic. Correct me if I’m wrong cause I am new and don’t know what went on prior to joining maybe this was already done. Can anyone call themselves a TK expert? Most experts gets lots of training.


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Yes, the following people can call themselves TK experts in my opinion:

Paul(Daetrin), Dan (CableGuy), Daniel(Swede), Tony(UKSwrath), Andrew (sly), Lucnak, Glen(GMRhodes), Brien(Harbinger), Joseph(JustJoseph), Greg(Wook), and you, you potato head.

 

You tell me all the time that I am knowledgeable about TKs, but the people I just listed, in my opinion, are EXTREMELY knowledgeable about things I can’t comprehened. You have Swede flippin’ ordering white plastic goo from like 1982 to build his 30th TK. I didn’t know what I was even looking at but some of the guys above were all like “Yeah! Can’t wait for this!”  I was like, “What the hell am I even looking at?” Dudes talking about shades of white paint and polishing techniques....measurements.... leaning tube stripes....

 

Point is, I agree with all your points, Frank. You know this. I do think sometimes this forum takes things a bit too seriously. A 300-page document on brow height is a bit much for me, but hey, that’s me. Some of these guys live and breathe this sort of thing day in and day out. Last night, some of my garrison were talking about different character costumes they’re building and I was quietly thinking “no clue who you guys are talking about.”

 

I don’t think though that the basic CRL is off-putting, nor do I think achieving Centurion is unattainable. Like folks said above, if people want basic, no worries, go for basic. But those who want screen accurate down to the last rivet, here are the extra things you need to do.

 

i think there’s something for everyone with FISD and these different level builds. But yes, your points are all valid and I’m glad you said what’s on your mind.

 

your FISD BFF,

Matt

 

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Ok so listen the big bad COG is stepping in now. This thread has be derailed a few times and has gone around and around to it being almost impossible to follow. Here is what I’m going to ask. Can everyone take a break for a minute from commenting. Dan @CableGuy can you please make a summary post if everything discussed so we can make some sense of everything?  Thanks. 

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Ok so listen the big bad COG is stepping in now. This thread has be derailed a few times and has gone around and around to it being almost impossible to follow. Here is what I’m going to ask. Can everyone take a break for a minute from commenting. Dan [mention=31976]CableGuy[/mention] can you please make a summary post if everything discussed so we can make some sense of everything?  Thanks. 

Fair point, Steve.

 

As my only suggestion was to discuss the brow height for ANH Stunt, I'll Kindly invite [mention=22112]justjoseph63[/mention] to help and edit this post to reflect the suggested ANH changes for L3;

 

 

Level 3 - 

1.  Ideally, the ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

 

2.  Tube stripes are positioned no more than approximately 7/16ths (1 cm) from the cheek, (a standard pencil width).

 

 

3.  Top section of posterior armor shall be in line with the bottom portion of the kidney plate.

 

 

4.  Posterior snaps/cod rivet shall not be painted.

 

 

5.  Ideally, a minimal (or no) gap is permitted between the top of the shoulder bell and the shoulder bridge.

 

 

6.  All abdomen buttons are integrated onto the ab-button panels/plates directly on the armor  No separate/added buttons are permitted. 

 

 

7.  D-ring on end cap shall be of a similar shape/size to the original Sterling type.

 

 

8.  3D printed weapons must be free of noticeable print lines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also invite [mention=22112]justjoseph63[/mention] to summarise the below;

OK... Don't hate me, but since we are on the subject there are other dogs in this race.  I know this is going to cause a clusterfudge, but what about these previous discussions?

 

ROTJ  https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/45204-july-2018-request-for-crl-updates-thread/

 

1) Shoulder cover pop rivets. L2      

2) Thigh ammo belt secured with 3 pop rivets L2     

3) Sniper knee secured with pop rivets?   

4) Overlap construction L2

5) Forearm with return edge?  

6) Removal of the need for elastic strap around rear of shoulder bridge?

 

TKC     https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/45523-tkc-request-for-crl-updates-thread/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-634403

 

 

From

The thigh ammo belt shall be positioned on top of the lower ridge as seen in official references and is not rounded off like ANH.

To

The thigh ammo belt may be positioned on or above the lower ridge as seen in official references and is not rounded off like ANH.

 

Lastly, I think it might be wise to do some updating on the CRL photos themselves.  I realize that many may have been used just to have an example, but some need serious updating to reflect up to date changes, and some just look plain awful and are riddled with issues.  There are a lot of incredible L3s now who's armor better reflects a more ideal look.  Example:  giskard8 (Arthur) from the HKG attains the very definition of a CRL model in all his builds.

I know a while back that we changed the policy where weapons were no longer permitted to be shown with models (which I thought at first was strange but now I understand it completely) as they can cover up certain key areas, etc. (as in the present ANH-S pic) and are not a requirement for L1.

QO53eXP.jpg?2&key=31e820027e8d7c05b4aa9ec1481f614beaae17be5043bf327ecbcd7157c985fd

 

These are the some that could use the updates, and if this is decided to be something we should pursue I am willing to spearhead the project.

ANH-S, ANH-H, ESB, R-1, TKC, ROTJ.  Thoughts?

 

 

I would invite [mention=16782]gmrhodes13[/mention] to edit and refine the below;

I highlighted on the first page some of the outstanding CRL’s, also been adding them as a reminder in the last few newsletter drafts, but nobody bit.

 

Ongoing CRL To Be Updated:

 

ROTJ text updates 

TKC detonator photos to be added also wording changed for thigh ammo strip here

ESB no bicep hooks L3, info here

 

Perhaps these can be finalised before additional work on CRL’s be continued.

 

 

***Regarding ANH Stunt Brow height, to start, I would simply ask that anyone reading this look at the photos and explanation on post #1 of this thread; (https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/46285-early-2019-crl-update-change-requests/ 

 

If we agree that the majority of ANH Stunt Troopers seen on screen display a gap between the eye sockets and the brow (much like the majority have tube stripes, the majority have a holster, the majority have 8 teeth drilled, etc.), then I put forward that ANH Stunt was "intended", based purely on the many screen shots and footage from ANH, to have a gap between the eyes and the brow. 

 

If the majority agree on this, then perhaps we could discuss if we, as a community, think that this should be a suggestion to new troopers. As the majority of seen on screen ANH Stunt troopers display this gap, I personally feel that this is a defining feature of the stunt. As such, I cannot see any reason why this could not be "suggested" from day one (basic), and perhaps requested at the higher levels. 

 

For example, "A gap is present between the eyes and the brow, as per the CRL photo."   (NO EXACT MEASUREMENTS!!!)

 

 

 

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I think we have our list thanks everyone. As Joseph mentioned we still haven't completed the ROTJ from last year. One step at a time. Unless there's something so important it can't wait this thread has run its course for now. 

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Just a couple of things Dan and it's all dependant on how you read, we are all different, but we can agree to disagree so disregard if I'm wrong.

 

 

Just to be a real a knob and of course I am from down under, (we drive on the right side of the road, well right being left) are the ears tilted back or tilted forward, depends how you interpret and describe, when looking at which side of the helmet , (this is known as a forward slash / )to me they appear tilting forward (greater fall from top than bottom) but no doubt I read this differently to others, but if it's confusing me would it confuse others?

 

1.  Ideally, the ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

1.  Ideally, the ears shall be tilting forward at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

 

Do we need the accurate measurement, wouldn't a pencil do? I suppose it depends on where from the cheek you measure, as it has a curve, a pencil would sit in there easier you would think than actually measuring, but again that's just me.

 

2.  Tube stripes are positioned no more than approximately 7/16ths (1 cm) from the cheek, (a standard pencil width).

 

2.  Tube stripes are positioned no more than a standard pencil width from the side of the cheek.

 

 

Again it's all about how you read it, this sounded a little more straight forward.

 

5.  Ideally, a minimal (or no) gap is permitted between the top of the shoulder bell and the shoulder bridge.

 

5.  Ideally there should be minimum to no gap between the top of the shoulder bell and should bridge.

 

 

 

 

I agree with the brow, I've always quoted the difference in appearances between the Hero and Stunt with mentioning the brow position, Stunts should have a small amount of the faceplate (white) showing in between, where the majority of Hero helmets seen have the lower brow (although one does appear higher in pic below) but many judge the look of Hero from the iconic Promo Hero which also had the lower brow appearance.

Image result for han and luke stormtroopers Image result for hero promo stormtrooper helmet

 

 

Joseph looks to have ROTJ in hand so I won't interfere.

 

 

TKC photos need adding of correct option TD's (currently it's an ANH)

 

ROTJ

iqZns3p.png

 

 

Game

iZPTaxz.png

 

TKC wording of the ammo strip placement:

"It was brought to my attention in the recent TKC L3 approval of Daphne that ROTJ armor will not allow the thigh ammo strip to sit on top of the lower ridge and cover the front of the ridge V (as seen in screen images). Looking at other makes of armor it appears it won't allow the strip to sit there either"

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
  • The thigh ammo belt shall be positioned on top of the lower ridge as seen in official references and is not rounded off like ANH.
  • The thigh ammo is glued and has no rivets.

         TO

  • The thigh ammo belt may be positioned on or above the lower ridge as seen in official references and is not rounded off like ANH.
  • The thigh ammo is glued and has no rivets.

 

 

ESB biceps do not appear to have hooks references can be found here

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable):
  • Biceps must be constructed using the butt joint and cover strip method. Overlap construction is not allowed.
  • No bicep hooks are present.

 

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Thought we were done for the meantime.

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13 minutes ago, ukswrath said:

Thought we were done for the meantime.

Dan invited me ;) 

 

11 hours ago, CableGuy said:

I would invite [mention=16782]gmrhodes13[/mention] to edit and refine the below;

 

 

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Just adding this last one for ROTJ updates as it has been brought up a few times:

 

There is no mention of the boot soles being white/tan and the image used of the boots in the CRL have black soles, I would think this correction would be a basic level requirement.

 

 

218E449F-1CAF-4543-9271-E3042E07E01D.jpeg

CB1C2856-75DB-4FD5-A1D3-5A0B18C48CC2.jpeg

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Just adding this last one for ROTJ updates as it has been brought up a few times:
 
There is no mention of the boot soles being white/tan and the image used of the boots in the CRL have black soles, I would think this correction would be a basic level requirement.
 
 
218E449F-1CAF-4543-9271-E3042E07E01D.jpeg.f7c29fe3add15c6e49a811a403c57fa5.jpeg
CB1C2856-75DB-4FD5-A1D3-5A0B18C48CC2.jpeg.1c5adfc32f8e1468d592a76cf8065a54.jpeg



Look at all those low brow Tks, were the ROTJs all heros?

#askingforafriend


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12 minutes ago, Frank75139 said:

Look at all those low brow Tks, were the ROTJs all heros?

#askingforafriend

 

 

 

 

Some info from Star Wars Helmets

 

"For Return of the Jedi, Made 1981/82, the Lucasfilm needed a significant number of Stormtroopers for the Death Star and Endor scenes - far more than were left over from ESB (themselves hand-me-down's from ANH). They therefore produced 50 or so new Stormtrooper helmets and Armor sets, basing the design on effectively a "recast" of an earlier ANH/ESB helmet and armor. Because of this recasting process - the RotJ versions made in 1981/82 look significantly different from their ANH/ESB counterparts. The design was amended quite significantly by the prop makers in London from the ANH/ESB look (although partly so by accident) and it features a taller, almost squashed or streamlined look with thinner ears. The majority of the helmets had green bubble lenses."

 

different-style-RotJ-stormtrooper.jpg

 

"It appears there were two slightly different versions of the helmets, with the majority of them featuring rounded black frowns, Aluminium Mic tips, new RotJ Decals and Hard hat liners (left). However there are also a smaller amount that were finished differently, and these feature squared off frown-ends, resin recast Hovi-Mix mic tips, ESB-Style decals and foam lining (right)."

 

Orig_RotJ_LFLpress01.jpg

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