Is the 501st requirements fair?

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

So, as everyone knows, the 50st have very strict entry requirements for accuracy. But is it fair for some people?
Such as the weapon requirements.
DLT-19 : Based on a real or replica MG-34 machine gun.
Not everyone in the whole world can obtain a replica, nor the real deal, especially here in Australia. A replica of any Full Automatic firearm is illegal in all but 1 state (which I don't live in) 
Even applies for the T-21 a.k.a the lewis.
Based on a real or replica Lewis Mark I machine gun. For this prop the magazine disk and bipod of the original gun are left off.
It's just not possible to obtain such things. And this isn't even for centurion.
How come scratch built look-alikes aren't accepted?
I personally would want to be able to troop in a centurion TD one day, but seeing these strict guidelines is really driving me away from this mob.
Sorry if this topic really grinds your gears.

Edited November 20, 2016 by justjoseph63

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

tried to edit it to remove th 's ... not working...

**justjoseph63[Staff]** · November 20, 2016

Not sure exactly what you mean about certain weapons not being accepted, Gerard. As stated in each CRL above the "Accessories" area, it says:

Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present appear as described below.

So as you can see, weapons are optional. But, if you are going to carry one, it does say (in the ANH Stunt CRL, for example):

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

The key word there is based.

There are MANY Troopers who carry home built DLT-19's, T-21s, etc., many made for less than $100.00 in materials! Although there may be small differences in them, the overall look needs to stay the same for continuity purposes, but I have never heard of any weapons being "unacceptable" for basic approval, and even Hasbro toy E-11s are acceptable at EIB level with some inexpensive mods like the Doopydoos kit: http://www.doopydoos.com/stormtrooper-e11-hasbro-blaster-conversion-skin-kit-mk2-2636-p.asp And large weapons are certainly not a requirement for costumes such as the HWT, Stunt or Hero. I know of several HWTs who rock their E-11s, which is totally fine! If you go TD, though, those weapons may be required at their top levels.

P.S. I edited your post edited to remove the extra 's characters.

**themaninthesuitcase[Admin]** · November 20, 2016

As Joseph says you don't need a blaster to clear in 99% of the Legion.

As for "based on" most troopers use plastic toys painted black bought at a local toy shop, or resin/rubber copies. Scratch build is completely fine and many do. 3D printing is also an option, not sure if there's any free files about but you can certainly buy a kit on eBay or etsy.

The wording is geared so you end up with something that looks like the original, which was a Sterling submachine gun with a sawn of magazine, some rubber trim, a tank scope and a bit of a WWII radio set.

FWIW I think most DLT-19s and all T-21s are scratch builds, not many people casting up a lewis!

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

I know i don't necessarily need a blaster to be approved, im just saying the requiremnts are kinda unnecessary.

also, based, despite being keyword, when combined with real or replica, means it has to be made from one of those items, Otherwise what's the point of having real or replica, since based on a lewis or mg-34 would be much more simpler and doesn't contradict "based"

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

*deleted*

Edited November 20, 2016 by GandalfTheImperial

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Not sure exactly what you mean about certain weapons not being accepted, Gerard. As stated in each CRL above the "Accessories" area, it says:

Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present appear as described below.[/size]

So as you can see, weapons are optional. But, if you are going to carry one, it does say (in the ANH Stunt CRL, for example): [/size]

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.[/size]

The key word there is based.[/size]

There are MANY Troopers who carry home built DLT-19's, T-21s, etc., many made for less than $100.00 in materials! Although there may be small differences in them, the overall look needs to stay the same for continuity purposes, but I have never heard of any weapons being "unacceptable" for basic approval, and even Hasbro toy E-11s are acceptable at EIB level with some inexpensive mods like the Doopydoos kit: [/size]http://www.doopydoos.com/stormtrooper-e11-hasbro-blaster-conversion-skin-kit-mk2-2636-p.asp [/size] And large weapons are certainly not a requirement for costumes such as the HWT, Stunt or Hero. I know of several HWTs who rock their E-11s, which is totally fine! If you go TD, though, those weapons may be required at their top levels.[/size]

P.S. I edited your post edited to remove the extra 's characters.

But that is exactly my point, based is the keyword.

Based

verb

1.

use (something specified) as the foundation or starting point for something.

meaning it has to originate from the real or replica firearm for the blaster to be approved.

**gmrhodes13[Staff]** · November 20, 2016

I must say I didn't find it too difficult, I scratch built both my DLT-19 and T21 mainly from pvc pipe and wood with plans found online. Really it depends how far you want to go with the costume, you can purchase ready made blasters if you can't build yourself.

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

I must say I didn't find it too difficult, I scratch built both my DLT-19 and T21 mainly from pvc pipe and wood with plans found online. Really it depends how far you want to go with the costume, you can purchase ready made blasters if you can't build yourself.

I don't think that was what I was referring to. Scratch building one is possible yes,

But for the blaster to be accepted, it requires it to be based off the real or replica gun (as far as it is worded, it means it has to be made from it)

Lichtbringer · November 20, 2016

For me this "based" refers to a certain optical resemblance. Closer is better, but at least it should be "reckognizeable as".

**gmrhodes13[Staff]** · November 20, 2016

I don't think that was what I was referring to. Scratch building one is possible yes,

But for the blaster to be accepted, it requires it to be based off the real or replica gun (as far as it is worded, it means it has to be made from it)

Based on as in looks like, not has to be made from

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Based on as in looks like, not has to be made from

Then why is the e-11 worded as:

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

Who makes a blaster based on a modified toy stormtrooper blaster?

Or who makes a blaster based on a scratch built blaster?

The way they worded it was very poor, and gives the feel of the definition 'has to be made from'

**justjoseph63[Staff]** · November 20, 2016

Unfortunately, the line has to be drawn somewhere, so to speak. Are you saying that you would like to make up your own weapon? Again, it comes down to continuity. We are a costuming group that is specifically designed to emulate the Star Wars franchise, including it's characters and props used in the films, video games, etc. Therefore, that's what we do. Becoming a part of this group is unfortunately not an inexpensive endeavor for many of the costumes, as most commercially available ones are sadly lacking in authentic details and not acceptable to our particular high standards.

As for weapons, I feel that the Legion and FISD as a whole understand this and allow members lots of leeway on these props, but we must remain faithful to the types that have been shown and used in the various SW applications, be they home made or purchased.

"Based on" in no way means that it must be a "real" weapon. That would not be practical, or even legal in many places.

The above two quotes by Michael and Glen (Q) pretty much sum it up precisely.

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

I don't think we're seeing eye to eye.

This is what I'm talking about.

This E-11 requirements says :Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

Now, first of all, a replica sterling smg is always "based" off of a sterling sub machine gun.

So if it was worded the way you guys think it means or should mean, then it would be typed as such:

The e-11 can be scratch-built, made from a real, or replica sterling machine gun or created from a modified commericial stormtrooper blaster.

the original way they worded it was:

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

Nothing differentiating the pauses between items.

So, using the verb definition of Based

it would mean Originating from a real or replica sterling smg, or a modified commerical toy blaster.

Now again, it's the way they typed it, that doesn't make sense to me... And I'm not a straight A student ( Actually, I've just graduated grade 12 on thursday, last week... Yay!)

Another example.

DLT-19 : Based on a real or replica MG-34 machine gun

Based on a real or replica mg-34...

Again, a replica is already based on the real deal... so what?

So using the verb definition again, it would make more sense.

Originating (made) from a real, or replica mg-34.

I know I'm making alot of commotion, I was just confused by what the requirement meant by 'based'

hopefully this clears it up.

If they meant 'looks like' and not has to be made from

then again, why

Looks like real or replica mg-34 etc.

a replica already (should) look like the real thing...

If they wrote ' Looks based off of MG-34' and removed the real or replica, then it would have made much more sense to me.

Again, sorry for the commotion, just confused.

**themaninthesuitcase[Admin]** · November 20, 2016

Okay heres the wording:

"Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster."

Maybe it would be better written as:

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun
scratch-built
a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster

So it can be based on a real fire arm or replica. OR be scratch built. OR be a toy. Also bare in mind a replica might be a rubber or resin casting, like the large portion of trooper use.

Does this clear up the issue?

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Okay heres the wording:

"Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster."

Maybe it would be better written as:

Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun

scratch-built

a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster

So it can be based on a real fire arm or replica. OR be scratch built. OR be a toy. Also bare in mind a replica might be a rubber or resin casting, like the large portion of trooper use.

Does this clear up the issue?

Yes. Although because I've been reading up too much law, everytime i hear 'replica' in any relation to guns, I automatically assume metal replica or permanently inoperable firearm. That's just how it is in Australia

If it's a urethane cast or rubber cast, we just call it a prop. Edited November 20, 2016 by GandalfTheImperial

**allan1313[TK]** · November 20, 2016

You are over thinking it way too much. The wording is clear enough. It can be real, a replica, or scratch built. Whatever route you go it just needs to look like whatever blaster you are doing.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Coloursergeant · November 20, 2016

But that is exactly my point, based is the keyword.

Based

verb

1.

use (something specified) as the foundation or starting point for something.

meaning it has to originate from the real or replica firearm for the blaster to be approved.

Hi Gerard,

The word that you are misinterpreting is REPLICA.

While you have your dictionary out, you should also look up that word:

replica |ˈreplikə|

nounan exact copy or model of something, esp. one on a smaller scale: a replica of theEmpire State Building.

• a duplicate of an original artistic work.

Note the wording "an exact copy or model". This does not mean it has to be made out of the same materials. A model of the Empire State Building does not have to be made of steel and concrete to be a replica.

The "scratch-built look-alike" you want to make is allowed and described quite accurately by the current CRL wording.

You should spend a little time reading thru the forums here and you will see hundreds of examples of how other members around the world are making their blasters and what they are making them out of (many of which are scratch-built). That will show you a great many ways to go about making your own Replica.

Good luck with your project and remember that there are always many good folk here ready to help you out along the way!

Edited November 20, 2016 by Coloursergeant

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

You are over thinking it way too much. The wording is clear enough. It can be real, a replica, or scratch built. Whatever route you go it just needs to look like whatever blaster you are doing.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Are we seriously going over this again. Wording isn't clear, because the commas represent it in a different way, and 'based' is used incorrectly because, AGAIN

looks like a real or replica doesn't make sense using the definitions you've provided.

based on simply means made from or originating. Not looks like.

using the correct definition, it would mean made from a real or replica etc.

We've just admitted they've worded it incorrectly.

And the scratch built thing came from the e11, if you look back, I was talking about the t-21 and dlt-19 saying based off of a real or replica.

AGAIN! using the definitions you;ve tried to explain to me, all said "looks like" which based off doesn't mean, and again, contradicts the whole sentence

looks like a real or replica. nope

made from a real or replica. Yes that makes sense.

Again, the reason I've argued about this was because a replica mg-34 would refer to a metal replica firearm outside of this community. a replica prop is different.

sratch-built wasn't meant to come into play. But since you mention it

Who can get there hands on a real, or replica prop, without scratch building it? i don't know that many vendors, so again, it wouldn't make sense

If scratch built isn't part of "replica" then, again, it only makes the whole real or replica thing harder to get tier 1 approval for the wep.

**allan1313[TK]** · November 20, 2016

Well all I know is I have a scratch built DLT-19 and I can use it just fine. You came here unclear on the wording and have been advised numerous times what it means. If you don't want to accept that is fine. I for one will not waste anymore time trying to help you understand.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Hi Gerard,

The word that you are misinterpreting is REPLICA.

While you have your dictionary out, you should also look up that word:

replica |ˈreplikə|

noun[/size]an exact copy or model of something, esp. one on a smaller scale: a replica of theEmpire State Building.[/size]

• a duplicate of an original artistic work.

Note the wording "an exact copy or model". This does not mean it has to be made out of the same materials. A model of the Empire State Building does not have to be made of steel and concrete to be a replica.

The "scratch-built look-alike" you want to make is allowed and described quite accurately by the current CRL wording.

You should spend a little time reading thru the forums here and you will see hundreds of examples of how other members around the world are making their blasters and what they are making them out of (many of which are scratch-built). That will show you a great many ways to go about making your own Replica.

Good luck with your project and remember that there are always many good folk here ready to help you out along the way!

I know what replica means, but if someone says "replica mg-34" I'm going to think of a full, life size replica of the prop, an imitation firearm.

Now, defining one word, that makes two, os a bad way to go. Especially if two words can make up one meaning.

Replica Firearm here means an imitation firearm, as I've explained.

A replica mg-34 is a imitation firearm in my mind, but a replica dlt-19 is a prop in my mind.

why? A replica weapon is a reasonable facsimile or copy of a weapon, even if it is not capable of discharging a projectile or substance, or a Category A, B or C weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or a hand grenade that is inert.

This has been imprinted in my mind for years, that's why I say a fully automatic replica firearm isn't legal here.

That's why I was confused, you see, we don't share the same definitions alot of the time ( Although I did use the oxford definition of based just earlier)

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Well all I know is I have a scratch built DLT-19 and I can use it just fine. You came here unclear on the wording and have been advised numerous times what it means. If you don't want to accept that is fine. I for one will not waste anymore time trying to help you understand.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Je*** I get what you guys mean, but what you guys say is what contradicts the bl**** page.

Contradict is my main point.

The Page, again, contradicts what you guys say.

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

This is turning into a softcore flame war.

Coloursergeant · November 20, 2016

:deadhorse:

GandalfTheImperial · November 20, 2016

Hi Gerard,

The word that you are misinterpreting is REPLICA.

While you have your dictionary out, you should also look up that word:

replica |ˈreplikə|

noun[/size]an exact copy or model of something, esp. one on a smaller scale: a replica of theEmpire State Building.[/size]

• a duplicate of an original artistic work.

Note the wording "an exact copy or model". This does not mean it has to be made out of the same materials. A model of the Empire State Building does not have to be made of steel and concrete to be a replica.

The "scratch-built look-alike" you want to make is allowed and described quite accurately by the current CRL wording.

You should spend a little time reading thru the forums here and you will see hundreds of examples of how other members around the world are making their blasters and what they are making them out of (many of which are scratch-built). That will show you a great many ways to go about making your own Replica.

Good luck with your project and remember that there are always many good folk here ready to help you out along the way!

Also, that's 1. on collins dictionary.

here's 2

duplicate, facsimile; imitation.

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Is the 501st requirements fair?

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