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Fan Made ABS FOTK armor


tk2092

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I agree that the evaluation should be done another way, to give the result the look of being really impartial.

 

5 sets, and at best one FN to Kevin and one from KB to Peter, of each maker sent to 5 knowledgeable persons (not knowing any armor, knowledgeable at comparing one to one), even better groups of people. So that the 5 comparing people/groups have both kits in hand, side by side. And after comparing they should go back to the maker, so they have no loss, and to prevent what it looks now - gifts, free stuff - come on, "giving it to a friend"? I had a good laugh from that, that´s all.

 

There is one simple question here - is one the copy of the other? For this question it´s senseless how it builds, or if someone likes it.

 

From my point of view it´s "mission failed", completely.

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I agree that the evaluation should be done another way, to give the result the look of being really impartial.

 

5 sets, and at best one FN to Kevin and one from KB to Peter, of each maker sent to 5 knowledgeable persons (not knowing any armor, knowledgeable at comparing one to one), even better groups of people. So that the 5 comparing people/groups have both kits in hand, side by side. And after comparing they should go back to the maker, so they have no loss, and to prevent what it looks now - gifts, free stuff - come on, "giving it to a friend"? I had a good laugh from that, that´s all.

 

There is one simple question here - is one the copy of the other? For this question it´s senseless how it builds, or if someone likes it.

 

From my point of view it´s "mission failed", completely.

Mission failed? For FN it probably been a success. The firestorm has elevated it to a whole new level.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

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Agreed, not for FN, he probably got boosted due to this useless procedure. And also not for the people who got free suits to do with what they want, as they got free suits.

 

But for us, that we would like finally to know if one is copied from the other, for us the mission is failed. Under the actual circumstances it doesn´t matter what any receiver of the free suits writes, we will not know more than before.

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This FISD is about accuracy, protecting the integrity of the armor and helping your fellow troopers. Recast or not if the armor is accurate enough for 501st approval don't be surprised if you see hundreds of these kits. As long as mass produced, replicated and recast FX kits are still excepted, nothing will change for FN, and the more noise that comes from this website probably just increases their profit margin anyhow.

 

As Tim mentioned this will take time. It might be best we didn't give FN so much attention.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

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As stated above, a number of times, there is no mission. <br><br>

There was no plan. <br><br>

There was an offer made by Peter to send kits to people for evaluation. Names were suggested to him (and honestly, I don't know that he took those suggestions, as those people have not received kits yet) and he chose some names on his own, from across the world. This is not a function of the Detachment, or a standardized process managed by the Detachment. This is us allowing the discussion to publicly take place in our forums, and ensuring that it happens in a civil manner.<br><br>

There is however, a very simple solution which I'm sure will absolutely cure the intense curiosity that any of you have regarding the origins of FN Armor. Dig down into your wallet. Buy a kit from KB. Buy a kit from FN. Compare them.<br><br>

If that's not acceptable, then dig even deeper into your wallet, and fund the process that laid out above by Michael.<br><br>

Unless you're (anyone reading this) willing to do so, you'll have to learn to appreciate the generosity of Peter in sending out the kits, and trust in reading the responses of the people who are building them. Some are more likely to provide answers to the questions that you're asking than other are. Some are quite simply likely to give a shiny review of the ease they had or didn't have in assembling the kit.<br><br>

If you're unhappy with what's going on, then the alternatives are spelled out above. This isn't a function of the Detachment. We get what we get in this case, take it or leave it.

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Per the letter of the agreement, nobody (EDIT:  Nobody who is doing the evaluating/building) is receiving free armor as a result of this process taking place.

 

As for what Evin has chosen to do with the armor... He is donating it to a friend. That's his choice, and I'll leave that at that. It is what it is.  It is well outside of the control of the FISD, and we are not running this process, merely facilitating it.

 

Sounds like someone is getting free armor, and that someone doesn't even have KB's armor.  Sorry, but this is starting to look like the "experts in examining armor" provided by the staff are nothing more than friends of the staff that are getting hooked up with free armor.  Donating to a friend is not donating, the word "donate" should not be used here.  He is giving it to a friend, girlfriend, what have you, so don't try to spin this as a some moral charity donation.  

 

Funny how FISD wants to be involved in recommending where these kits go, but hands off when those people abuse the process here.  This is embarrassing for all of us at FISD.  As a detachment either get involved or don't get involved in the process, but don't use the FISD staff card to recommend where the kits go and then not stand behind the abuse those kit receivers are clearly showing. 

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There is however, a very simple solution which I'm sure will absolutely cure the intense curiosity that any of you have regarding the origins of FN Armor. Dig down into your wallet. Buy a kit from KB. Buy a kit from FN. Compare them.<br><br>

If that's not acceptable, then dig even deeper into your wallet, and fund the process that laid out above by Michael.<br><br>

Unless you're (anyone reading this) willing to do so, you'll have to learn to appreciate the generosity of Peter in sending out the kits, and trust in reading the responses of the people who are building them. Some are more likely to provide answers to the questions that you're asking than other are. Some are quite simply likely to give a shiny review of the ease they had or didn't have in assembling the kit.<br><br>

If you're unhappy with what's going on, then the alternatives are spelled out above. This isn't a function of the Detachment. We get what we get in this case, take it or leave it.

 

No one is criticizing the generosity of Peter.  We are criticizing that those who received this kit don't even have KB's armor, and those people were recommended by the FISD staff.  No one should have to buy both kits since Peter offered to send some out, but the poor decisions from you and the rest of the staff involved prolonged this process and put the armor in the wrong hands.  

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Again, see above, the people recommended by the FISD have NOT received armor or to the best of my knowledge even been contacted by Peter about receiving armor. <br><br>

We did not put armor in anyone's hands. This is only happening strictly as a result of Peter's generosity. <br><br>

If someone cannot sleep at night because they have concerns that FN recast Kevin, the only true solution that will ever put their minds at ease is for them to buy both kits and compare them for themselves.

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If you're not happy that the people don't have Kevin's kit, the only solutions I can offer you there are to petition Kevin to send kits to the people that have the FN kits, or buy some to send to those people. We cannot control what Kevin or Peter choose to do with their kits.

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I'll add a bit to this because I really feel the level of conspiracy theory paranoia is getting out of hand. I was contacted by FN (Peter) recently saying he was sending me a kit and wanted my honest review and opinion if it was a recast. He gave me no disclaimers or warnings or conditions. I don't even know the guy so I have no reason to doubt the motivations of his apparent desire to get unbiased feedback from people. I even informed him that I'm not an armor forensics expert, but I will gladly give my unbiased opinion and review. I also was never contacted by FISD staff about any of this (although I told Tim as an FYI just yesterday). There really isn't anything shady as far as I'm concerned.

 

In addition to that KB (Kevin) has offered to send me several pieces of armor he believes are "tells" to his recasting claim. He wants them back, but I don't care as the point here isn't "free armor", it's to get other people to add opinions who aren't personally invested in the brands. I don't plan on a build thread (because I have no time) and will ask Peter what he wants me to do with the kit when I'm done reviewing it.

 

So all in all, I really think people need to stop the forum wars before anything even gets a chance to happen. Q is already reviewing the armor and has also been told by KB that he'll receive parts for comparison as I will. It sounds to me like this is a reasonable approach. For those who think it's a disaster or failure in purpose to review the armor - why? None of our vendors are required to submit props samples for investigation if someone pipes up and says "hey, I think he re-casted this." No one is bound to do any of this just because some people want some formal process to happen. Many people don't even care. At the end it's so easy to just not purchase something from someone you don't feel good about and move on. All that's really happened here is KB made a claim and FN is trying to refute it. You are not required to submit your work to outsiders to justify yourself because of a claim.

 

So please have some patience and restraint and appreciate that two armor makers are spending money to ship stuff to people, for the sake of their personal brand, and several of us are spending some free time giving feedback for an armor kit we don't need, for the sake of the community. We have enough questioning of everyone's motives going on around here that it would be nice to not assume the worst about everyone all the time for a change.

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Not that I'm aware of, no. The names suggested were people who have made or handled armor for as long as twenty years, and have direct experience in identifying tells of recasted armor, and have demonstrated impartiality, and integrity for close to a decade or more in their time in and associated with the Legion.

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For the record, I have never been offered a kit from Peter or parts from Kevin to review, not that I'm an armor expert anyhow. I also have no knowledge of who was to receive armor from these builders, nor am I connected to any persons that have received any armor. Just in case that was ever in question.  

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It just doesnt seem honest when people raise their hand and say "yes i can do the requested comparison" when they really can't and the motivation seems to mainly be to get a free suit (For the record, i think the suit is in the right hands with Q). Nothing to do with the detachment.

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Both agreed to send out kits to compare, so why should i shell out money to do their job? As i mentioned, the compared suits should be returned to them, so no loss.

 

So .......

 

FN failed due to sending free gifts to people that can´t compare.

Kevin failed due to not sending kits to compare and now trying the cheap way to get his wanted evidence.

The whole situation failed due to not setting up a proper and fair procedure before.

We failed due to wanting answers on Kevins long and repeated suspicion.

I failed due to thinking that would be possible in a fair way without granting favours from one side or the other.

FISD staff failed due to trying to handle this without really being in a position to handle it.

And i´m sure i missed more failure from someone.  ;)

 

If that is not enough to call "the mission" (find out if somone recasted another) failed, what do we need?

 

 

It´s nice that we now get some insight in the quality and builds of FN armour, but that´s another piece of cake than the above. And even then i would prefer to read the honest opinions from people that ordered and paid their suit, opions might be slighly less biased if own money is involved.

 

My impression from all the above is, and will be in discussions ...... get over it and avoid both.

Jimmiroquais armor, or maybe the coming Anovos stuff, seems to be the way to go if you want to be sure. Or wait until this" recast or not" problem will be solved over time.

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It just doesnt seem honest when people raise their hand and say "yes i can do the requested comparison" when they really can't and the motivation seems to mainly be to get a free suit (For the record, i think the suit is in the right hands with Q). Nothing to do with the detachment.

 

Let's not beat around the bush. Whose motivation are you questioning specifically? General accusations about "people" get tiring because it can't be confirmed or refuted. Who stood up, with selfish intentions, and said "I want free armor"? Q and I both are being sent parts by KB so you have to be speaking specifically about someone without saying it. Neither of us asked for anything from FN either. I certainly don't care about the armor. It would not make sense for people to be transparent about it if they just wanted to acquire easy armor somehow. I don't know who else is receiving it, there's either first hand knowledge of someone lying to get a kit out of FN or there isn't. If it's the latter, let's not throw out general un-targeted accusations of dishonesty.

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The reality of the situation is that Peter offered to send kits to a few people for evaluation on the open boards. I suggested a list of 5 people who both are known for unassailable integrity over numerous years on this forum, and also have unassailable credentials in armor making/building. I'm guessing others contacted him as well. What Peter does with that information is up to him, and he can ignore it or not. It seems he has been following up with a few people but who actually he sent kit out to is known only by himself at this time.

 

The premise is that these people will give unbiased feedback on the armor. I asked Peter what people should do with the kit once completed (e.g. return it) and his answer was to donate it to a worthy cause.

 

Kevin B. is certainly free to do the same. It's one thing to see pix side by side, quite another to hold the kit in your hands, see the plastic in detail, etc.

 

As Clint noted, there is no requirement that any maker do this, and it is something Peter offered up on his own. It is unprecedented that a maker would send stuff gratis in exchange for an unbiased review, and the people doing the reviewing are transparent on how the kit was obtained. Since they are free, no one on command staff is getting a kit AFAIK, as that would be a conflict of interest.

 

I'll beat the dead horse one last time to ensure it's out of its misery: it sure would be easier if people asked a clear question first such as "what was the vetting process" etc. and waiting for an answer before making assumptions, accusations, or otherwise causing forum churn.

 

EDIT: Lastly, please refrain from making unfound accusations. All you achieve is pissing people off and making yourself look bad, as you will come out in the wrong at the end. The end goal is unbiased opinions.

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Both agreed to send out kits to compare, so why should i shell out money to do their job? As i mentioned, the compared suits should be returned to them, so no loss.

 

So .......

 

FN failed due to sending free gifts to people that can´t compare.

Kevin failed due to not sending kits to compare and now trying the cheap way to get his wanted evidence.

The whole situation failed due to not setting up a proper and fair procedure before.

We failed due to wanting answers on Kevins long and repeated suspicion.

I failed due to thinking that would be possible in a fair way without granting favours from one side or the other.

FISD staff failed due to trying to handle this without really being in a position to handle it.

And i´m sure i missed more failure from someone.  ;)

 

If that is not enough to call "the mission" (find out if somone recasted another) failed, what do we need?

 

 

Way to look at the bright side  :laugh1:

 

Trying not to take it out of context but funny none the less.

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I am very supprised at the response of the community to this. The generous gift of time that I wanted from impartial, experienced armour builders is to be cherished and respected.

 

I offered 5 armour kits to be evaluated and feedback returned to me and the community. Lets just say more than 5 people contacted me and were happy to recieve what they thought were free armour kits. I asked for guidance on whom I should send these kits to and was guided. These armour kits are not free. The reciever has been instructed to give it to a person that is "Most derseving" of a kit. That means I want the kits given to a person that does the most charity work for example. If there is not such a person then it is to be sold on eBay and the funds donated to a 501st charity.

 

For those who I have sent armour kits to are of my choosing. I am Irish and I would love to send to the CO of the Irish or UK garrison but I was affraid they would be accused of biased as geographically we have things in common. So I tried to choose people that would truely be impartial but have extensive knowledge of armour building. I choose who I send the kits to and many people who I have asked have politely declined as they dont want the abuse that is being thrown around, which is a big shame as there are lots of good opinions we all needed. For the people I chose they will have a box delivered that they might not be expecting. That is why some are in the dark as to who the kits are going to.

 

Please be patient and respectfull to those that are carrying out analysis.

 

All will be revealed in time.

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Both agreed to send out kits to compare, so why should i shell out money to do their job? As i mentioned, the compared suits should be returned to them, so no loss.

 

So .......

 

FN failed due to sending free gifts to people that can´t compare.

Kevin failed due to not sending kits to compare and now trying the cheap way to get his wanted evidence.

The whole situation failed due to not setting up a proper and fair procedure before.

We failed due to wanting answers on Kevins long and repeated suspicion.

I failed due to thinking that would be possible in a fair way without granting favours from one side or the other.

FISD staff failed due to trying to handle this without really being in a position to handle it.

And i´m sure i missed more failure from someone.  ;)

 

If that is not enough to call "the mission" (find out if somone recasted another) failed, what do we need?

 

 

It´s nice that we now get some insight in the quality and builds of FN armour, but that´s another piece of cake than the above. And even then i would prefer to read the honest opinions from people that ordered and paid their suit, opions might be slighly less biased if own money is involved.

 

My impression from all the above is, and will be in discussions ...... get over it and avoid both.

Jimmiroquais armor, or maybe the coming Anovos stuff, seems to be the way to go if you want to be sure. Or wait until this" recast or not" problem will be solved over time.

 

I think Michael that using the word "failed" over and over again doesn't equate to the severity of the situation. One guy accused another guy of re-casting and now somehow the entire detachment and Legion has failed in multiple aspects? That seems like a pretty dark lens to view all of this through. I think we should really acknowledge that this is something that takes time to be fully clear and is not something FISD is required to solve in some official way. This is not a corporation or government, it's a bunch of volunteers who do a crap-ton of work and this little diversion has probably doubled the amount of time investment for these people recently just to make some members of the community happy. In the end, either one guy is throwing out a false accusation or another guy isn't being up front about how he made his armor. In all cases, the vendors have their own best interests first and that's a natural thing, not an automatic indication of dishonesty. Unless of course you already don't believe one or the other in which case this review period doesn't mean anything.

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At this point there is nothing constructive being added. Clint has given the best answers that can be given, and there is no benefit to any more back and forth. This thread is locked as a result to avoid the dead horse being beaten further.

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