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PlayfulWolfCub

E-11 Power Cylinders Research Thread (renamed from "3 Central Fuses...")

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Thanks Mathias :)

 

So THOSE are transistors! I think I need to do a crash course in vintage electronics if I'm to achieve my goal of recreating the most accurate Power cells ever.

 

Andy 14922 has done some great research too & found what seem to be some of the original resistors.

 

http://whitearmor.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=12464&hl=&fromsearch=1

 

I've bought some from him to incorporate in my Power cell recreation :)

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I've copied my conversation with Andy14922 into this post to keep things tidier:

 

 

 

 

Andy19422

 

Lieutenant

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  • Name:andy

Posted 28 October 2011 - 07:46 PM

 

Hi Andy, great minds think alike :laugh1: After a lot of searching I think I found almost the same vintage resistors, If you check the two pics most of the labelling matches up.

cdaa.jpg

By andy19422 at 2010-09-01

parts066.jpg

By andy19422 at 2011-05-14

This is a pic of the resistor mounted on a set of Russ cylinders, as you can see they are only a couple of mm too long. I don't know if this is due to the resistors being the wrong type or the cylinder bracket being made to short. I think the wires on the resistors were soldered on to the front base and through a small hole in the back of the bracket.

parts068.jpg

By andy19422 at 2011-05-14

PM me if you want three. :D

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:47 PM

 

 

Dude you're awesome!!! :icon_bow: Where did you find those and of course I want 3!!! :) ...if not 6 or more!!! This is a result I couldn't have hoped for!!! :dancing-trooper:

 

They may be long or they may have extended through the metal plate like the large cylinders do. If they're 26mm from where the connecting wire enters the brown cap then they'd sit on my draft Cylinder plan like this (not taking into account perspective). It's a plan I've made taking measurements from ref photos and it seems very similar to Russ's which I was pleased about - seeing how much independent plans agree is a good way of checking authenticity. :)

 

Are they 26mm x 5mm, with 4mm end caps?

 

Do you have a photo of them used in a completed cylinder unit?

 

genuineresistors.jpg

 

@ Andy19422 PM sent requesting your awesome resistors :) ...& do you have any more of those excellent speeder pics, showing what happened at the back of the resistors?

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Posted Yesterday, 12:39 AM

 

 

Result! This is exactly the sort of photo I've been after! :dancing-trooper:

 

A long Googletrawl has provided fairly solid confirmation that Andy's vintage resistors are the accurate dimensions and very probably the real deal, I'd say!

You'll find the image & more at http://www.flickr.co...del/3748224987/

 

 

It shows the resistors passing through the metal frame, just like the capacitors.

 

It also shows the components they then joined on to, although I imagine the propmakers did cut those elements off.

 

Some nice detail showing the soldering of the capacitor caps onto the main body, the angled legs and the resistor wires curving round the attaching point.

 

 

I'll amend my diagram and upload it tomorrow

 

 

resistorscomethroughzoom.jpg

Edited by PlayfulWolfCub

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On 31.10.2011 at 8:50 AM, PlayfulWolfCub said:

Thanks Mathias :)

 

So THOSE are transistors! I think I need to do a crash course in vintage electronics if I'm to achieve my goal of recreating the most accurate Power cells ever.

 

Andy 14922 has done some great research too & found what seem to be some of the original resistors.

 

http://whitear...l=&fromsearch=1

 

I've bought some from him to incorporate in my Power cell recreation :)

I don't think they are actually called "transistors", but they are the predecessor of transistors. A literal translation from Swedish is "radio tubes". I tried to google the english word for them but had a brain freeze...

Edit: new google search calles them Radio tubes, or vaccum tubes. So I guess a literal translation isn't too far off. :)

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Look at this vaccum tube socket for example, now obviously we can't see the inside, but it has the same kind of socket shield.

P-ST9-700.gif

And another socket with similar holes for the tube pins

8_pins_Glod_plated_ceramic_vacuum_tube.jpg

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Btw... the small resistor you've got test mounted on the russrep cylinders isn't a resistor, it's a capacitor. Note the "0.002 uF" that means micro Farad. Resistors are measured in Ohm.

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Btw... the small resistor you've got test mounted on the russrep cylinders isn't a resistor, it's a capacitor. Note the "0.002 uF" that means micro Farad. Resistors are measured in Ohm.

 

That's a really important distinction - thanks!!! (Though that's Andy19422's photo - I don't want to be taking credit for his research & finding of the capacitors)

 

So, in the following labelled pic what do you think each part's name & function is?

 

It looks to me like D is another capacitor but why would it need a shield around it?

 

E looks like some type of lead would attach to it -

 

& what do the parts at F look like they do? I know they got cut off for the E11 Power Cells but I'm hoping to track down an original part A

 

Exciting stuff! :)

 

LetteredCylinderparts.jpg

Edited by PlayfulWolfCub

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I think E looks like a male part of a coaxial cable socket, usually used for antenna cables. Check the back of your TV or VCR.

3090555968_490a849d13_m.jpg

 

F looks like a resistor. The fact that they appear to be connected in serial strengthen my belief that it is.

 

D is probably the same capacitor as B. Why the shield is around it, I don't know.

Edited by Locitus

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Btw... the small resistor you've got test mounted on the russrep cylinders isn't a resistor, it's a capacitor. Note the "0.002 uF" that means micro Farad. Resistors are measured in Ohm.

Also: Capacitors tend to get larger as their capacity increases, so if these found ones are too big, we need to look for lower values than 0.002 uF.

Capacitors store a charge in rolled up metal foil inside them. More surface area -> more capacity -> larger unit.

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Ok, so to sum up what we've got so far:

 

A - large capacitor in an aluminium or tin case

B - small capacitor

C - socket for 7 pin radio vacuum tube (aka radio tube)

D - small capacitor shielded in tube

E - Male coaxial cable socket (I thought this too but I'm not sure why it'd be sitting among the innards of an amplifier (if that's what this is) rather than on the outside cover.)

F - Resistors (Finally I have an actual resistor involved! lol)

 

I think that's all the parts accounted for. I'll keep trying to locate original large capacitors (A) or modern casings of the same dimensions.

 

My Power cell designing is on hold till I receive the capacitors from Andy19422 since I'm sure they are the correct size & I'm much happier working on models with real objects rather than in PC software once I've got a rough idea of sizes.

Edited by PlayfulWolfCub

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Sounds about right.

 

Yeah, it is a little odd to put the coax connector there on the inside, but as I was googling pics I saw more examples of that, so it's not unique. I'll try to find a picture of it. I assume it's an easy way of connecting one part of the amp with another, for serviceability and easy repairs.

 

This old radio (as in com radio) has several coax sockets internally for signal transfer.

mitrek-rca-plug.jpg

mitrek-extra-IF-filter.jpg

 

Source: http://www.repeater-builder.com/mitrek/mitrek-interfacing.html

Edited by Locitus

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or valve as i mentioned earlier ;)

 

Cheers Geordie - wasn't meaning to skim over your input. Is a "valve" another word for "radio vacuum tube" or is it a different component entirely? I know guitarists have tube amps and valve amps but I don't know if they're the same thing. Like I said I think I need a crash course in vintage electronics just for this project! lol

 

This old radio (as in com radio) has several coax sockets internally for signal transfer.

 

"Com radio" - as in communciations? So does the inclusion of this socket suggest it's original purpose? Or at least rule some purposes out?

 

This is a fun investigation though it'd be easier to phone George (Lucas) and ask him to take a cast from the top of his Mouse Droid for us! lol

I'm puzzled as to why official repro E11s that have his endorsement aren't more accurate - in various areas but particularly the Power Cells!

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No, I just mentioned that radio as an example of another device that uses coax cables and their sockets internally. :)

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I think that those electronic components that you're showing for the 3 units may be what is listed.

it's possible that all three units are present on the blaster.

 

is the scale correct on these? from what I see it looks like they might be a little too large.

 

the parts that we're all looking at come from a tube audio amplifier, which explains the series of tubes, resistors, capacitors and such.

they are all in a line on the amp because these were reported to be stage amps for multi channel systems.

 

LetteredCylinderparts.jpg

 

B is what we're really interested in !

 

the suggested center cells below are way too long!

russ has his scales correct!

 

parts068.jpg

 

you can't fault russ rep's scale... as this also must be in scale with the top of the magazine well on the sterling.

 

the capacitors are the correct type, just too long!

 

you can clearly see that rus rep has his scales correct when you look at the images above it.

Edited by TK Bondservnt 2392

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E is not a coax plug. it's an audio plug.

 

it clearly resembles a shielded audio plug. remember... I'm 50 years old and it's not 70's or 80's electronics we're dealing with.

 

this is TUBE powered old school high voltage audio amplification.

 

coax would have a smaller center pin, and would not have the negative shield around it.

Edited by TK Bondservnt 2392

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more comments from the original blog:

 

"That makes sense, the shop always had big old radios and "portable" amps for musicians which were big things. They had those other amps that went between a record deck and speakers too, I think marshalls were going well by then ?"

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in this photo you can almost see the ratings on the center capacitors:

 

cdaa.jpg

 

remember the data I have comes from deckard's research, and I'm using photos from this thread, the blog and other sources to share information.

I'm not claiming any of this data to be my own research.

 

also if you look at the photo below it looks like all 3 might be on this blaster.

 

E11inChronicles.jpg

 

 

see the shadows? are there 3 capacitors between the larger ones?

 

another photo from a member suggesting the same aspect.

 

Picture2-2.png

 

 

and this shot shows horizontal scale.

 

so on the top of the mag well we have the magazine release and then in front of that the baseplate for the

power cells.

 

I believe the template for the baseplate, and the cells that sskunky, synaptyx and darkside sithlord have worked up

is EXTREMELY accurate.

 

cylinder-template.png

print image at 300dpi.

 

 

this template when mounted on a sterling is a perfect fit.

 

32mm horizontal length along the magazine well.

Edited by TK Bondservnt 2392

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the large ones above them with the squarish holes look like some sort of socket for a bulb or valve ?

 

some of the aspects you mention are the tube sockets "squarish holes" this would be the tube element of the amp.

the power cells on a blaster are all capacitors in the chain.

 

the 2 larger capacitors, with the 3 or possibly 2 capacitors between them is the part that's placed on top of the e-11

 

the squarish holes would have somthing "like" this plugged in.

 

but it's an audio tube. not just a transistor

 

ror227.jpg

Edited by TK Bondservnt 2392

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E is not a coax plug. it's an audio plug.

 

it clearly resembles a shielded audio plug. remember... I'm 50 years old and it's not 70's or 80's electronics we're dealing with.

 

this is TUBE powered old school high voltage audio amplification.

 

coax would have a smaller center pin, and would not have the negative shield around it.

With respect Vern, Coaxial cable (coax is just a name, not a unique kind of socket (meaning the signal travels along the axis)) and it's socket can be used for many things. In this case I believe the socket is for a coaxial plug because of it's center pin and it's grounding shield. This however says nothing of if it's an antenna or audio socket. You can run both kinds through it. Ordinary RCA (red and white or black) cables also use a coaxial plug even if the cables themselves are not. In fact, they are sometimes, called RCA-coaxial.

 

Why are you saying it should be, and then shouldn't be a shield around it?

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the suggested center cells below are way too long!

russ has his scales correct!

 

parts068.jpg

 

you can't fault russ rep's scale... as this also must be in scale with the top of the magazine well on the sterling.

 

the capacitors are the correct type, just too long!

 

you can clearly see that rus rep has his scales correct when you look at the images above it.

 

I'm certainly not meaning to "fault" Russ's work, Vern. The template I made independently from him by measuring the available images is extremely simliar and his cylinder units are beautifully designed and made. I don't think he'd claim that they're 100% screen accurate in every detail though. Wouldn't it be great if we could finally (after 34 years!) feel we've got as totally screen-accurate power cylinders as possible (short of taking a cast from the Mouse Droid, which I don't see happening) for our E11 builds? :) To achieve that level of accuracy we may need to alter existing designs but I mean no disrespect at all to anyone's efforts and I would hope that no-one wil take offence to me proposing that new designs are slightly more accurate.

 

The capacitors seem to fit perfectly when you notice that they pass through the rear plate just like the 2 larger capacitors either side of them:

 

 

If they're 26mm from where the connecting wire enters the brown cap then they'd sit on my draft Cylinder plan like this (not taking into account perspective). It's a plan I've made taking measurements from ref photos and it seems very similar to Russ's which I was pleased about - seeing how much independent plans agree is a good way of checking authenticity. :)

 

 

genuineresistors.jpg

 

 

 

 

Capacitorthroughplatefromback.jpg

 

 

I suspect the capacitors will turn out to be exactly what was used on the E11s, Mouse Droid & Landspeeder. I'll have a better idea when I've received them from Andy19422 and I've incorporated them into a 3D model. (NB - My above template isn't final & isn't 100% accurate - it's just to give an impression of how the capacitors might fit)

Edited by PlayfulWolfCub

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It does kind of look like they stick out of the rear on that last picture. You might be on to something there.

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I just heard back from a vintage radio expert & these are his thoughts:

 

Hi Andy

 

I was asked about something simular about 5 years ago. But that one was painted gold.

 

I suspect the unit is WW11 Military and part of a bigger unit as its not a radio etc as such but a repetative line of circuits.

 

TCC were english but apart ftom that there is nothing else I can say about it

During the 50/60s the uk was flooded with government surplus electronics. This is a typical chassis from that period and they were bought by hobyists who either used the components to make something else or got the units working.

 

I suspect that the chassis in the picture is part of a radar or navigation system.

 

The bolt on capacitors I have not seen for years in new equipment. Remember technology has moved on and the size has decreased. There are no suppliers I know of who would have this old stock and they don't store very well.

 

The last aircraft in the RAF to carry such equipment retired some 30 years ago so the chances of picking any up are minimal.

You would probably be better off making your own from ally tube.

 

Maurice

 

 

Interesting stuff! Naturally I've thanked him profusely and promised to let him know if we eventually identify it :)

Edited by PlayfulWolfCub

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Nice research so far!

I believe you are correct that there are likely 3 capacitors in the center.

There are two photos the original 2 capacitor theory is based on. The one shown from Chronicles in this thread appears to have one capacitor in shadow. There's also a top view which only shows 2, but it appears the top one is bent thereby covering one of the lower capacitors.

 

Russ' blueprints are copied (with permission) from an earlier run of cylinders that I helped with. They were produced by Bobasfett from the RPF.

 

TCC is just a guess at this point - right?

I'm assuming because the one close capacitor found says TCC on it?

 

I ask because I was looking at capacitors and the markings visible in this photo...

 

in this photo you can almost see the ratings on the center capacitors:

 

cdaa.jpg

 

Check out the one in the center of this pic. It clearly has a K where the TCC would be.

Under the K is a quote symbol and capital M. In another pic you can make out the TE and end quote.

That confirms the "METALMITE" brand name.

Could there be a K type capacitor that is smaller than the TCC?

 

BTW - The capacitors do not go through the mounting bracket so 26mm is too long.

They should be around 20mm.

 

Thanks Playful Wolf Cub for contacting me!

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Those TCC Metalmite capacitors seem to be very pricey. :/

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